hansenator

Shoulder and back problems have derailed my training for years. I'm just getting back into it now. In training, I've also been frustrated by not being able to get enough repetition during partner drills to really get good at something. I'd be happy to work something until I really own it but it's hard to find like minded training partners.

Don't forget that any country would have its native fighting systems as well. There might be a strong foreign influence but it's not like martial arts were suddenly introduced to a people who have never prepared for a fight before.

I like the shin followed by the instep. I tried with the ball of foot but kept hurting my toes on the heavy bag. I decided that, even if the ball of foot is effective, I can't practice it without hurting myself so I focus on what I can train.

Thanks for the replies. I don't get into fights so I don't have much "real" experience. If I'm going to train something that can be used for self-defense though, I'd like it to be a good fit for me personally so I can have confidence that I won't injure myself through its use. What do you think about substituting a hammerfist for the backfist, at least where it seems to work well? There seems like less risk of injury and it feels like a heavier blow when I practice on the heavy bag. Going back to my lack of experience though, well, that's why I ask.

What is the risk of hand injury from backfisting someone? I realize a backfist can be effective in self-defence but I see stories of people breaking their hands on other people's heads. I picture myself cracking a knuckle on a hard part of someone's skull or cutting the hand open on his teeth. I've been given the advice to use a hammerfist instead because there's less risk of injury to your hand, and it does feel a bit stronger on the heavy bag but what are your opinions? I understand proper hand conditioning can make a difference but how much is necessary? I don't want to train something with self-defence in mind if it will injure me and I'm not comfortable relying on techniques that require extensive hand conditioning to be used effectively. If anyone here has used the backfist for self-defense or some kind of bareknuckle encounter, would you be willing to share your experience? Thanks.

Pavel Tsatsouline has written about how experienced fighters tend to hit their hardest at around 80% effort, and almost as hard at 50%. When you're not trying your hardest you tend to be more relaxed.

My experience with the foot twisting method is, if the movement is shortened like was described above, the heel might come off the ground without a visible twist of the foot. The mechanics are very similar but the movement isn't big enough to carry through to where the foot twists.

It might be worth finding a good physical therapist or someone to take a look at you. I spent years with shoulder and back problems. I couldn't do a pushup or walk down the street without pain. Sometimes I couldn't stay in bed because it hurt so much. I was told several times "that's what happens when you get older" but I finally found someone who could figure out what was going on. It turns out my glutes were underactive and weren't stabilizing the pelvis the way they were supposed to. Other muscles were trying to do the job and this stressed the SI joint causing pain. Getting the glutes turned back on and strengthening them made a world of difference. The shoulder was a similar thing. A couple of stabilizers, specifically the serratus and lower traps, weren't doing their jobs. Correcting this has allowed me to resume normal activities. I also had knee pain which was caused by fallen arches. Orthotics and foot/hip exercises have helped this. Don't assume that, because you're active, you're immune to this. I've been active my whole life until pain sidelined me. I think this type of thing is more common than people realize, especially if you're on desk patrol or do a lot of sitting.

I don't get into fights so my experience in that area is limited. When hitting the heavy bag, I try to make a smacking sound instead of a thudding sound so the bag jumps and it might be swinging away after the fist has retracted.

A somewhat downward angle? I'll have to try that. My toe flexibility allows for front kicking, I just have to be careful to have the toes pulled back. I'm not sure if the muscles aren't strong enough but they're probably fighting against a mobility deficit. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to round kick with the ball of foot. I can kick a wall and that's ok, at least with shoes on, but I don't have a wall to kick. Part of me also thinks that a person isn't very flat so if I can't kick a bag I probably couldn't kick a person either.

Has anyone struggled with being able to pull their toes back enough to avoid injury during ball-of-foot kicks? I kept jamming my little toe during front kicks so I've been working on stretching the toes and practicing pulling them back. It's getting better but I just tried round kicking the heavy bag with the ball of my foot and injured my foot. Now it hurts to walk. It feels like a muscle/tendon from the big toe that goes under the foot got sprained or something. Are there any tips for increasing toe flexibility or hitting with the ball of the foot? How realistic is using the ball of the foot in round kicks? I understand the reasoning for it but does anyone work them on the heavy bag without injury?

Thanks for posting that!

That's kind of at the heart of my original question. How does one fight or defend oneself and not get knocked out while keeping the hand on the hip? I figure there must be ways to account for that or people wouldn't do it. I know boxers can be good at slipping and dodging punches but I don't know what karate people do. I can understand doing something for training purposes but I don't agree that it's a good idea to make things more challenging in a fight or self-defense encounter.

You're right, I probably am over thinking it. I've been guilty of that often enough. I'm just trying to reconcile my limited knowledge of karate with my previous experience.

I agree, no one in their right mind would chamber the fist before punching in that scenario. I'm also equally concerned about retracting the non-punching hand and getting knocked out by the attacker's follow up attack.

Even with that in mind, if self defense situation lasts longer than the first move or so, I think good defensive habits could make a difference. With the right training, it takes more effort to not have the hands up where they can intercept attacks. Granted it was during sparring and not self defense but I can't tell you how many attacks I've stopped that I didn't even see coming because my hands were already in a position to do so and habit put them in the right place.

That's been another point of confusion for me. The "classical presentation", if you will, seems to differ from what people actually do in sparring or fighting. I understand the idea of using larger movements as a learning aid or a training tool but I haven't seen people really talk about it.

Thank you for the explanations everyone. If I'm understanding correctly; one purpose of pulling the hand to the hip is as a learning aid, like to teach mechanics and to keep your elbow from "flapping all around like a wounded bird". When your mechanics are sound, there's more flexibility to chamber the hand in different positions, such as in a position where you can guard your face? So the karate police aren't going to arrest you if your punch doesn't begin and end on your hip? Except in kata where the moves are presented as they are for very specific reasons. That would be an explanation I could be comfortable with. When I was looking up the word hikite, I ran across an article that kind of said the same thing but couldn't tell if the author was referring to both the punching and retracting arms or just the punching arm in particular.

Thanks for the replies. It sounds like there are good reasons for chambering the hand. My concern is more that, when your hand is on your hip, it's not in a ready position to guard against an attack. My own experience when sparring is that, when I throw a punch at my partner, there's usually a punch coming at me as well. If my non-punching hand were pulled to my hip, I would be less able to defend against it. I also look at other systems who don't chamber in that manner and wonder why some do and some don't but mostly I don't want to be knocked out because because my hand wasn't up guarding my face. I realize there are some things that aren't readily apparent. Choy Li Fut for example looks kind of open at first but I've been told they're hard to get in on because of how they use their techniques. I figure karate must be similar but it's still a mystery to me.

Hi everyone, I'm a first time poster and I recently signed up for a local Shorin ryu class and I wanted to see what people can tell me about the practice of chambering the hand on the hip. I've looked at numerous videos and books and have had some limited exposure in past classes and it seems like karate people just can't do anything without at least one of their hands being placed on a hip (not literally true I realize, it just seems like it). I understand it's easier to generate power that way and I've heard the arguement that the retracting hand could be grabbing and pulling the opponent into the punch, which is fine if that's what you're doing. I assume it works or people wouldn't keep doing it that way. It's just that I come from a Kali/JKD background and I was always taught that if you drop your hands you'll get knocked out, especially at closer ranges like elbow range. Please understand, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I'm trying to understand the common practice of what I was taught is a bad idea so I can have faith in the system and commit to it. Thanks.