TJ-Jitsu

Biting works too!! I believe that biting could be under the heading of a submission. Or a kindly knee to the groin could be under the same heading. Let's call it an option that's dependent on how good a position one is in. It can be done but it's effectiveness depends on how good your position is.

As I said I wasn't being condescending, so I'm not "banking" on you not having any experience, but the opinions and rationale youre giving do not reflect having much experience. I'll try to elaborate on that later with examples. In regards to opening the eyes of "golden glove" boxers I have two responses to that: One is that if you're operating outside the realm of boxing I can only say sure- they only operate within the world of boxing so that's only natural. Two is that "Golden Gloves" gets tossed around SO much these days that people often have no idea what it is. Golden Gloves is for Amateurs and I mean that in the literal sense. Anyone talking about golden gloves at the professional level is the equivalent of a college football player bragging about his high school accomplishments. Statements like this are what I'm referring to when saying you're assumptions sound as if they're from someone who hasn't much experience. "Duking it out" IS boxing. Having a "slugfest" IS boxing. Many people assume that "boxing" means you're attempting to "touch" your opponent and you're "not trying to hurt" your opponent. That is to suggest that if you come in with "Look out OMG I'm Crazy!" haymakers that its going to somehow be a different fight. There are very specific reasons why boxers don't just throw everything into a punch right from the get go: -Its WAY too slow. To throw only your most powerful punches with the utmost amount of power is simply way too slow against any competent boxer. Big power punches are much more telegraphed that your classic speedy punches such as jabs and crosses. -Because its too slow, a skilled boxer can quickly counter these attempts at overwhelming them. What this means is that you're eating a 3 piece from your opponents before your one big shot has even had an opportunity to land. -Putting too much into a punch will off balance you and tire you out too fast. This is often seen with novice level boxers (who may be experienced fighters even) where they put too much behind their punches to the point they off balance themselves. Even if they hit, they have no (good) follow up punches and now have to regain their balance before they can begin to mount any credible attack. God forbid they miss with that big shot, they're now wide open for very powerful counterattacks. That's part of what learning how to box is. -A (good) professional boxer can break your nose or your orbital with a jab. There is a tremendous amount of power that can be behind a good jab. Most people have no idea just how powerful these punches are because the other guy doesn't appear to be hurt by them. The other guy in these circumstances though is also of reputable skill so theyre often defending or rolling with the punches accordingly. When you have such a discrepancy in skill (as we do here) you'll start to see just how good they really are. Agreed on most parts, except the end. McGregor has done enough to show hes world class, but not enough to give the reputation he and Dana have apparently given him. He has yet to defend either of his titles, although he gave up the 145 belt. But lets not get derailed with red herrings in this conversation.... I'm still waiting to hear how hes got any chance whatsoever. You haven't given me any credible strategies or techniques that could suggest how. I'm trying to explain to you how theres nothing inside a ring that McGregor can do that Mayweather hasn't seen 100x already from fighters significantly better, faster, stronger, and more precise with their hands than McGregor. The only one you've given me is that hes going to "Duke it out" with Mayweather as if several of his past 49 opponents haven't attempted the same thing, and ALSO as if "duking it out" isn't boxing. Consider: Thank you TJ-Jitsu for the boxing lesson, you are clearly very knowledgeable and well informed in your opinions on this subject.My opinions here are of course on a rudimentary level, from my own personal experiences and not based on second hand knowledge or Wikipedia statistics. There is however a "man against man" event to take place, which is where I'm listening to my intuitions and not buying in to the pre fight hype like most people like to draw there opinions from. Regarding condescending and assumptions, being underestimated has its benefits; something Conor McGregor is notorious for being underestimated. Indeed- on that I'll agree

As I said I wasn't being condescending, so I'm not "banking" on you not having any experience, but the opinions and rationale youre giving do not reflect having much experience. I'll try to elaborate on that later with examples. In regards to opening the eyes of "golden glove" boxers I have two responses to that: One is that if you're operating outside the realm of boxing I can only say sure- they only operate within the world of boxing so that's only natural. Two is that "Golden Gloves" gets tossed around SO much these days that people often have no idea what it is. Golden Gloves is for Amateurs and I mean that in the literal sense. Anyone talking about golden gloves at the professional level is the equivalent of a college football player bragging about his high school accomplishments. Statements like this are what I'm referring to when saying you're assumptions sound as if they're from someone who hasn't much experience. "Duking it out" IS boxing. Having a "slugfest" IS boxing. Many people assume that "boxing" means you're attempting to "touch" your opponent and you're "not trying to hurt" your opponent. That is to suggest that if you come in with "Look out OMG I'm Crazy!" haymakers that its going to somehow be a different fight. There are very specific reasons why boxers don't just throw everything into a punch right from the get go: -Its WAY too slow. To throw only your most powerful punches with the utmost amount of power is simply way too slow against any competent boxer. Big power punches are much more telegraphed that your classic speedy punches such as jabs and crosses. -Because its too slow, a skilled boxer can quickly counter these attempts at overwhelming them. What this means is that you're eating a 3 piece from your opponents before your one big shot has even had an opportunity to land. -Putting too much into a punch will off balance you and tire you out too fast. This is often seen with novice level boxers (who may be experienced fighters even) where they put too much behind their punches to the point they off balance themselves. Even if they hit, they have no (good) follow up punches and now have to regain their balance before they can begin to mount any credible attack. God forbid they miss with that big shot, they're now wide open for very powerful counterattacks. That's part of what learning how to box is. -A (good) professional boxer can break your nose or your orbital with a jab. There is a tremendous amount of power that can be behind a good jab. Most people have no idea just how powerful these punches are because the other guy doesn't appear to be hurt by them. The other guy in these circumstances though is also of reputable skill so theyre often defending or rolling with the punches accordingly. When you have such a discrepancy in skill (as we do here) you'll start to see just how good they really are. Agreed on most parts, except the end. McGregor has done enough to show hes world class, but not enough to give the reputation he and Dana have apparently given him. He has yet to defend either of his titles, although he gave up the 145 belt. But lets not get derailed with red herrings in this conversation.... I'm still waiting to hear how hes got any chance whatsoever. You haven't given me any credible strategies or techniques that could suggest how. I'm trying to explain to you how theres nothing inside a ring that McGregor can do that Mayweather hasn't seen 100x already from fighters significantly better, faster, stronger, and more precise with their hands than McGregor. The only one you've given me is that hes going to "Duke it out" with Mayweather as if several of his past 49 opponents haven't attempted the same thing, and ALSO as if "duking it out" isn't boxing. Consider:

Do you/have you any boxing experience Alan? I'm not attempting to be condescending, but the ruleset they are fighting under IS boxing. What this means is despite any thoughtful ideas or wishful thinking McGregor has NO CHOICE but to BOX. That's the rules. He cant kick, he cant elbow, he cant grappling. This is a BOXING match. Give me any conceivable game plan that McGregor has that doesn't include boxing. Slug it out? That's boxing. Pick his shots? Also boxing. Tire his opponent? Still boxing.... Anything and everything you can do with your hands within the established ruleset is boxing. Its all been tried against Mayweather. Do I seriously think McGregor is going to box Mayweather? Of course, because he signed the contract and that's the ruleset they're competing under. You do understand that boxing is everything and anything you can do with your hands in those gloves within the ruleset to win right? Which points out the obvious- whatever strategy McGregor brings WILL be boxing no matter what, and that's why he'll still lose.

I feel like making a provocative post (what else is new?) so I decided to attack BJJ. "Submission only" is taking BJJ backwards as a good martial art. For a long time when I was in the competition circuit, I would hear fighter "X" say "I don't fight for points, I fight for the submission." The critique was always that "sport" fighters fight for points while "real" fighters try to get the submission. Shortly thereafter sub only tournaments started to open up so that we could see who the "real" champion was. The problem is that we started seeing jiu jitsu that wasn't very impressive (IMO). A "fighter" who falls on their butt and drags it across the mat to "attack" an opponent in a drastic effort to be "world champion." The first thing to point out is that "sub only" is supposedly a new idea for grappling and we're to believe that its a new concept but it isn't. Its been around for a long time... its called catch wrestling. What JJ'ers thought was going to happen by eliminating points was eliminating the stalling you see so often when a fighter gets a lead so "ah ha!" fighters will start to attempt to finish the fight when they get to a particular position! The reality was that with no incentive to pass a guard or get dominant position, fighters had no reason to learn or attempt to learn how to do it- why put all this time and effort into passing or sweeping when theres no reward for it? May as well just fall on a foot and attempt leglocks all day long. What we have now though is jiu jitsu fighters that have no takedowns, no sweeps, no pressure and in short- have gaping holes in their game. Consider, BJJ was made for fighting. It was developed, tested, and forged on the streets of Brazil for an absolute fighting style that would win when there are no rules. This is precisely why points are awarded for getting a dominant position in BJJ- it reflects just how important said position would be in a real fight. Sub only ignores this concept and becomes its polar opposite with submission being the ultimate (indeed only) way to win. This is BJJ elitism in my opinion. My submission game is very unique and it works particularly well, but I recognize that submissions are far from the only way to win a fight. Very often in a fight, position can be a submission... when you drop unrelenting strikes on your opponent from there. This is why you see styles like wrestling that do exceptionally well in MMA because they emphasize the importance of step #1- get a dominant position (i.e. be on top). Often they don't have particularly good submissions but nor do they need to because they'll just continue to pound and punish their opponent. In an attempt to deal with this dilemma, EBI has started to allow open hand strikes when on the ground. Another "new idea" that's not particularly new.... they've just reinvented Pancrase

That's a matter of opinion and to be frank, I think you're wrong. Many people talk about "prime" but have a very difficult time distinguishing what that term even means, or that it means one particular thing. Mayweather is not more than a year or so removed from beating Pac quite decisively. Too often people think "prime" means your physical prime but that's just not the case. - - Consider - Some fighters are athletic only in the sense that they do stuff but they're not really sure how they do what they do or why they do it. These are the kind of fighters that hit their prime in their mid to late 20s and die out into their 30s as their recovery starts to wean. Mayweather is far from this type of fighter, and this type of fighter represents one extreme of fighter- the purely athletic but not very intelligent fighter... - - - The other type is exactly what Mayweather is- the technician. He knows exactly what why and where hes doing what he is. This is the type of fighter that improves drastically with experience but precisely because they consciously are able to learn and adapt their game. This is the type of fighter that gets significantly better as he ages because his game is based off of intelligence and technique rather than raw athleticism. Consider fighters like Couture, Liddell, and Anderson Silva who hit their prime in their late 30's early 40's. They were "solid" at the younger age, but it was their marked progress in efficiency that made them the champions they became. Vitor Belfort would be considered a decent example of their opposite. Coming after his victory over Pac, I don't think Mayweather was ever more dangerous in a boxing ring than he is now. You're not wrong, but the problem here is the ruleset- McGregor cant "not" box Mayweather- that's the rules that are dictated! If this were a kickboxing match then sure it becomes a valid discussion, but hes got no choice but to box Mayweather which is exactly why hes going to lose. Once again, see the above in regards to fighters in their prime and let me explain why your assumption is correct... if it were reversed. McGregor doesn't have a big gas tank. There are several reasons why this may or may not be, but most of it comes down to efficiency. A very precise fighter, McGregor doesn't need to throw many punches to get his desired effect. What this means is that from a technical standpoint he may not be throwing his punches as efficiently as he could (maximizing large muscle groups and minimizing small ones). - - - Consider an example of one I just started hitting pads after several months time. Not being in terribly good shape, I wouldn't be expected to go very long. I can however throw very efficiently for 3 rounds with lots and lots of fast powerful kicks. 10 years ago when I was in great physical shape from jiu jitsu, I'd still only last a single round because I wasn't throwing my strikes efficiently compared to now despite being in much better shape physically. That's the fallacy is the assumption that both fighters are using the same amount of energy to throw the equivalent number of strikes. This is one example of how technical knowledge can mascarade as athletic ability when it is not. Mayweather has developed absolutely efficiency as it pertains to throwing punches and boxing merely because hes had to- that's his job. When you consider hes just fought one of the most aggressive boxers in the game in Pac, there just simply is no way that McGregor can mount even a fraction of the offense that Pac did, or throw near half the amount of punches with the same consistent power. In this sense, the longer the fight the more it favors Mayweather. Its in McGregors best interest to attempt to finish early, but against perhaps the greatest defensive boxer to ever be in the game, that just isn't an intelligent solution. - - He has no chance whatsoever under any circumstances including any and all parallel dimensions against Mayweather in a boxing match. Hes just as likely to put on a kimono and defeat Jacare in a jiu jitsu match.

Simply put, Conner does NOT have the skill to beat Mayweather at all in any way whatsoever in a boxing ring. Many people simply do not know just how good professionals are in their respective trades. I remember when Dana White announced Diego Sanchez as the second best jiu jitsu fighter in mma behind BJ Penn several years ago... For as amazing as people thought he was, the guy was a blue belt. It was a bit of an embarrassing statement. This Conner McGregor issue isn't much different. I cannot stress just how skilled boxers are at footwork, head movement, and perhaps most importantly, their jabs. Seriously, Nate Diaz is able to stand and trade with McGregor and his boxing is "solid" as it pertains to the MMA world but far from being "good" in the boxing world. McGregor is very precise and very powerful, but that doesn't mean much in the world of pro boxing because EVERYONE at that level is. What makes a pro boxer a skilled pro is his defense and frankly with what he eats fighting Nate, he doesnt stand a chance in any way shape or form in any round ever against someone like Mayweather. Consider that Mayweather has probably thrown more punches in a single boxing match than Mcgregor has in his entire MMA career combined- and hes had 49 of these fights. That's ALL he does and does it against others that also ONLY do that. Do I want McGregor to win? Absolutely. Mayweather is a cocky and racist POS and I'd love nothing more than the king of trash talk do a "Giants vs Patriots" type ruining of a career. It just wont happen though.

Doesn't matter if the style is similar or not, its not the same. I'm a black belt in BJJ and I've got fairly solid Judo and tend to do well against many (no so high level) Judo black belts. Everytime I do judo however, I wear my white belt.

Anything you try to do from the rear mount your opponent can also do, but with 100x more leverage. Something to keep in mind if you want to start biting and grabbing testicles....

I love the RNC in MMA, mostly because many don't do it as efficiently as it can be done. This tends to give people false senses of security that the back is safer than it actually is. Most people rely on getting the wrist bone under their opponents chin for the choke. This isn't wrong, but it gives lots of space turn turn (into your opponents elbow for example) when attempting this choke. This also cant be relied on when you've got 4 oz gloves on. This is why there are people out there who are world class and world champion BJJ'ers who can get to the back but unable to duplicate their success with this choke in mma (Marcelo, for example)...

that is funny and a bold statement.what we have here is the time old arguement of which is the better art. that someone from another art(mcgregor) can beat a boxer. That's not a fair comparison though. There are so many sport specific things applied in boxing that don't apply to the same level (if at all) to mma. -boxers tend to have very deep and wide stances, something much less applicable in mma -boxers can only punch. This is one of the reasons you see boxers that truly throw punches in bunches, with 7,8, and 9 punch combos. Said combos tend to be much too long for MMA. -bobbing and weaving is less applicable for MMA and seen much less. Its almost guaranteed in boxing. Then you have the experience. Mayweather is older and hes been doing it much longer than Conner. Hes also done only boxing and to be fair probably throws more punches in a single fight than Conner did his entire career of fights combined. If we were to crunch the numbers you'd probably see that Mayweather has thrown more punches, had more punches thrown at him, and by the best in the world by about a factor of 100. Conner has absolutely no chance whatsoever....

To be fair, offending me is more difficult as we agree on most things. Also, the decision is Patrick's. Apparently he thinks you contribute or something... Seriously though, this is well deserved. I contribute alright- I keep his moderators sharp and on their toes when I post

I figured I'd be the last to be member of the month. I apologize for not offending more of you... Seriously though, thanks!

If Mayweather has a heart attack, a stroke, and is struck by lightning all at the same time, he'll still beat conner 12 rounds out of 12

Yes, as long as you don't look like a nascar driver....

Its absolutely critical, but more importantly is how my opponents footwork (or lack thereof is...). Power is drawn from your hips, but that power is drawn from your legs. Takes lots of training to really get and apply it. Depending on how someone stands, you cant necessarily tell what they're going to throw, but you know what they CANT throw. Usually what they cant throw they also cant counter or block adequately either. Much like jiu jitsu, I don't enjoy a fair fight. I attack where my opponent is weak. Depending on his stance sometimes it punches, sometimes its kicks, and sometimes its throws. Spend a year or so just throwing a punch or whatever to get a rough idea of how your arm/leg is supposed to go. Then start working on your footwork and see how drastically your strikes improve.

Absolutely agree with you TJ Jitsu.This is why Tai Chi Chuan is practiced slow. Did we just agree on something?

That's why if you're going to fight for ego, you need to plant the seed into the minds of those around you. Whilst pummeling your opponent, continuously shout "hes got my wallet!"

I find people make things much more complex than they need to be. Consider there are two general ways to be fast- one is athleticism and another is positioning (technique). Superior position gives the illusion of speed. Examples include boxers cutting angles and grapplers getting on top of someone. Any technique is best learned practicing as slow as possible- it allows you to spot the the weakness very easily. As I get better at a particular technique I try to do it as slow as possible, and this includes training too. If you don't know why you're being fast in terms of positioning chances are good you're relying on athleticism. If you understand the positioning as Irma pertains to a fight, then you don't need to be athletic. So if you want some zen knowledge the way you learn to be fast is by practicing slow.

Hes misinterpreting challenge matches as being typical training.

Be careful what you ask for- I get the feeling one day her request will be granted

I fight smarter, not harder. I've taken many hits over the years and while I may getting punched as another day at the office anyone would agree its always more pleasant when you're NOT getting hit. Nothing "wrong" with body conditioning per say, but I'd much rather work my ability to evade, parry, and counter an attack than just getting hit by it and toughing it out. Even your classic thai has two guys stand in front of one another and just beat the hell out of themselves until one falls. I always fight the weak link. Use thai against boxers (and virtually every mma'er for that matter), box the thai fighter, wrestle the judoka, judo the wrestler... jiu jitsu everyone ;p

All of this is explained beforehand. This isn't sparring its a fight. You need to understand the people that are asking for these matches. These are the guys that are all "you cant take me to the ground" and "that stuff doesn't work on me" so we decide to have a fight. Now here are the rules for a challenge match- the challenger can do whatever he wants, we merely ask that you don't bite for the sake of diseases. You CAN bite, but it'll quickly become the last time you're able to do that. Now the rules for the jiu jitsu fighter- hes not allowed to strike with a closed fist but hes going to take you down. After he does hes going to get to the mount. Hes not going to punch you with a fist, but rather hes going to slap you to demonstrate just how much control he has over you. Then he'll choke you. You'll want to "try again" (they always do...) but they also fail to realize that if this were an actual fight you would not have that option. So what you're asking me to do is to not only not hurt you, but also not embarrass you at the same time. Meanwhile there is no doubt that you're trying your hardest to injure and cripple me the moment you get a chance. The fact that I'm slapping you instead of punching you is about as merciful and compassionate as one can get. The first match is usually a few slaps to get you to turn your back. The second match the slaps are much harder and more frequent. If you insist on a third match, there are no more slaps (or submissions for that matter) and its punches and elbows at this point. A few things to consider- this is still much more humane than any striking style is going to be (considering they'll hit you to the point of unconsciousness with blunt force trauma.) No other martial art ever allowed someone to walk into their school, challenge them, and have the potential to walk out unharmed. This is a FIGHT and I'm able to have enough control so as to only hurt your ego and not your body. What other martial art can offer that? When looking at these videos, you're often not seeing what led up to the match and the banter of the challenger. You speak of Chinese styles and other martial arts, so allow me to call you out on that one- show me a video of a challenge match with a style other than jiu jitsu or modern day mma- a full contact no holds barred match at that and show me the "humanity" demonstrated by the challenged. Lets assume you can find a match, you'll notice that the challenger will be beaten so profusely that an immediate rematch is not possible. You're going to leave the jiu jitsu school with injuries only to your ego (unless you persist). In regards to martial arts and the "code of conduct" you speak of you also need to understand that not everyone is interested in that. I don't train martial arts to become a better person or improve my spirituality, I train because I like to fight. Martial arts are supposed to teach people how to fight. I take great offense to people who claim to be able to do it while simultaneously being unable to do it. The whole situation could have easily been avoided if the challenger merely took a couple of classes.... A couple of (What) BJJ classes?Stand up vs ground arguments are similar to, my dad is tougher than your dad confrontations, that hapen between children; for me they are pointless and very much an indication of immaturity and lack of real life experiences and substance. No, no its not because martial arts are about fighting. If someone claims to be able to do something they need to back it up. Theres no more "real life" experience than throwing down and fighting. All martial arts make a claim (to defend oneself) and this is a very practical and bold statement to make- theres nothing wrong with asking someone to prove what they're claiming. Of course, the other party doesn't need to fight when challenged but if one is going to make claims one needs to be prepared to back up what they say....

I play butterfly almost exclusively now- I'm not a big fan of classic guard (where you lie on your back) anymore. Part of the reason why I do is exactly the reaction your opponent is giving in that video- people of all levels try to grab my hips and put their head there, breaking their own posture in the process and giving a great opportunity for a guillotine.

Cross training to be a Boxgrappler is the idea.Or be a fantastic grappler or a great boxer. I am predicting, that there will be a resurgence of boxing, due to its adaptability tactics to defend and defeat grapplers. Grappling and boxing were the two main types of fighting as I was growing up in the 1950/60s. I never heard of anyone saying one was better than the other; there was just a mutual respect that these two styles were, what one did or needed to learn if wanting to become good at fighting; then UFC showed up and rivalry between the two disciplines was unleashed. I don't think theres any resurgence of boxing, at least not yet. First off, boxing (or any striking style for that matter) doesn't have any effective grappling defenses because they're striking... not grappling techniques. That said, one of the biggest weaknesses that current fighters have (compared to boxers) is a weak jab combined with poor head movement. The jab sets everything up in "normal" boxing, but fighters can ignore this in the cage because they can bully their opponents (i.e. drive into them like a bull) and worry moreso about haymakers and the like (which is the common MO for your typical generic MMA fighter). Sometimes you get a fighter that has a good jab and can use it exceptionally well, such as St Pierre. Poor head movement relates to the stances that the fighters carry. Boxers will sit much lower and much wider allowing for much more versatile movement. They also need only worry about punches as everything else is illegal in boxing. Such a low and wide stance is not desirable when your opponent has options to kick, knee, or drive for a takedown. As a result most fighters have a stance wider than a thai fighter for example, but more narrow than a classic boxer would.