Spartacus Maximus

In all your martial arts training history, is there anything you regret or wished you had or could/should have done? For me it is finding and training under my teacher. Perhaps my understanding of Okinawan karate and martial arts would be greater had our paths crossed much earlier.

Does anyone else train this way for lack of better options? After much thought, it seems like sending videos of training is the best way to progress when doing it in person isn’t possible. Even if there are some parts of training that require in person evaluation, it would be better than nothing. Travelling one direction or the other to train might only be possible once every two years as it is quite far and expensive for myself.

As a student without a dojo, there is nobody else to share any costs with. Obviously the basic thing to do is covering the plane ticket, but there must be other things to do. The plan would be to invite the CI of the main dojo(my sensei), or one of the seniors. The CI already travels to teach in Latin America and Europe regularly. Basically, the goal is to keep training as well as setting up a shibu dojo in a region/country where Okinawan karate is virtually absent.

This topic is interesting. When there are no others to train with nearby and one’s instructor live too far away. for everyone, what is required for inviting the head of your style or high seniors to teach? Being a karate orphan can be challenging, especially when the hanshi and even the nearest senior is an 6~8 hour flight away.

The main reason for the inquiry is that there are quite a few of Miyahira’s direct students(9th and 10th dans) teaching out there who do not seem to be affiliated to the hombu in Okinawa. It would be interesting to have the input of someone who is with Shidokan.

It is much easier to learn what kata techniques mean and how they are applied at the same time than no having a clue until shodan. Ideally, one would start learning the bunkai and applications(basic oyo) soon after learning each kata. Longer kata might be split into shorter sequences for this. perhaps another reason why this changed is because karate was usually taught in private or very small groups. It’s a lot tougher to effectively teach/learn bunkai to 25 at a time than it is with 3~5 people.

Very interesting about the grappling in Okinawan styles. It is said that Ti, the native pre-todi martial arts had as many throws, locks and grappling techniques. Another native art called Tegumi is mostly grappling and has been called Okinawan Sumo. It also explains why every oyo bunkai for shorin ryu kata ends with some kind of throw, lock, and then strike combo.

Okinawa Shidokan was founded by Miyahira Katsuya to pass on Chibana’s karate. Miyahira taught many students who now teach outside Japan and Okinawa. It would be greatly appreciated if anyone could share some insight about Shidokan in other countries. Are they all affiliated with the Hombu in Okinawa? How do they all relate to each other? Going by videos out there, there are quite a few 9th and 10th dans. Any information and opinions are appreciated, but please send a PM if the information could be sensitive. It would serve no good to inadvertently step on anyone’s toe or cause a stir.

Thinking back on past experiences, bunkai applications and practice was reserved for shodan and higher. This resulted in people reaching shodan with no idea of the purpose, meaning and use of kata. Much like learning swimming step by step, yet not knowing/understanding that it is meant to be done in water and never actually going in water. Never mind the frustration for students, it does not make for a very interesting or effective way to teach. When and why did this become the norm? This is in sharp contrast to personal experience where Okinawan and Japanese instructors would teach the meaning and application step by step for each part of kata from the very beginning.

Very interesting indeed. The particular stance of Motobu Naihanchi is different from most Okinawan styles, but shares the same emphasis on developing strength and stability in the lower body and twisting power for short range range techniques in front and left/right sides. Contemporary first-hand accounts tells of a time period before established ryuha, when both Naihanchi and Sanchin were taught/practiced in Shuri-te and Naha-te. Many of the known experts/teachers of that time were acquainted with each other and likely trained together or at least exchanged skills. Some even had solid friendships like Itosu and Azato. Then later at some point Shuri-te kept Naihanchi while Naha-te retained Sanchin. How, why and when is uncertain.

Another question for everyone: Whichever of the two kata you practise, what would be the most accurate, detailed(finer points like tension etc) and comprehensive description of how the stance should be done correctly?

@Wastelander At least on the surface, the stance used in Sanchin is nearly identical to Naihanchi except one foot is forward making it look like a staggered Naihanchi stance. The Naihanchi stance referred to here is the one from Shorin ryu. Back straight with pelvis tilted, knees bent feet turned slightly inwards and shoulder width apart. Thighs, knees and lower body tensed. If Itosu is indeed the originator of this, it would be interesting to know what evidence of this there is. On Okinawa there are some schools of Shorin ryu where Naihanchi is practiced and used exactly like Sanchin in Uechi ryu and Goju ryu. The breathing and rythm is different but, it is done with the same or very similar tension. Just like Sanchin, students are tested during the kata by someone striking various areas of the body. Higa Minoru of Kyudokan comes to mind.

As described here, the Naihanchi stance is different from the one used in most Okinawan schools. It sounds closer to Motobu’s Naihanchi and other shuri-te derived styles where the stance is shikodachi or some variant. The stance in the OP is the Naihanchi stance with feet turned slightly inwards and almost identical to Sanchin except both feet are on the same line instead of staggered. How is Sanchin dachi supposed to feel? Where and what is tensed? How about structure and balance?

These have some interesting points in common. The input of those familiar with Sanchin will be helpful as it is the least familiar of the two, personally. Given that both of these kata have many different versions, this post focuses on versions in Okinawan styles. Stance: How is this taught and explained in your lineage? How should the stance feel? Completely loose and relaxed or tensed in some areas? For anyone replying, please mention which of the two kata you practise and the founder of your lineage. Similarities between the two and anyone may add and correct: 1. On the surface Naihanchi and Sanchin stance are similar, especially the knees and feet direction. 2. Both are considered core kata and fundamental training(tanren). 3. Both probably originated from or were heavily influenced by chinese systems from Fukien. 4. Both are deceptively simple and short 5. Both kata are used to test and evaluate skill level, mental and physical toughness and body conditioning.

Would any or some types of action be more appropriate considering the agro person has not initiated any physical contact, though close enough to smell his breath. Obviously the threat is there, but some actions might be legally/ethically better.. Assuming that escape is impossible without dealing with the threatening person. Is a strike more justifiable than a throw, a lock or a kick?

@Montana to answer some questions about the initial situation and antagonist.. The agressive/threatening person and the defender are perfect strangers. The agro person is enraged and initiated the situation by closing, while shouting threats, insults and with obviously threatening gestures. He is definitely closer than anyone would let a stranger get, especially an obviously violent one. There is no significant size/weight difference. He shows no signs of being intoxicated.

To put it in a simplified way, forms/kata that are considered beginner level in a system are the ones that introduce for the first time the most basic and essential skills and principles. The techniques and core elements in them are usually developed and expanded upon in all subsequent ones taught. Most of the time these forms are purposefully short, but the length or number of steps isn’t always an indicator or whether a kata is XYZ level. Some short kata are deceptively complex. Another trait the lower level kata share is that they are often the oldest or among the oldest in the system.

Here are some more variables: it is outside not too long after dark, not stupid o’clock. The area isn’t considered risky or problematic and the area is urban although not in a large city. Both parties are alone. The aggro guy has managed to get within grabbing/hitting distance. He hasn’t touched the defender yet, but is verbally and physically threatening. This is something often overlooked or taken for granted, especially for people who have never had to physically defend themselves.

It might be necessary to have a specific sub-forum to discuss self-defense topics…But since this topic doesn’t seem to fit anywhere else, General is probably where it must go. At what point would one be justified in using force against a physically and verbally threatening, aggressive person? using force=any action requiring physical contact: strike, throw, lock etc.. To narrow the discussion down a bit, consider it in this context: The aggressor is physically threatening. He has already come into your personal space. He hasn’t touched you, yet he is in your face aggressively pointing/poking his finger. Lastly, this hypothetical is in a weapon-restricted context. Blades and firearms are highly regulated and illegal to carry without legitimate reason. The aggressor might be armed, but you are far more likely to encounter a pointy/cutting object. In this situation, at what point would you be legally(where you live) justified in using physical force(any physical contact)? Are any responses more appropriate than others? Perhaps a joint-lock is a better option than a throw or a strike, for example.. thanks for reading, looking forward to reading everyone’s input

The time spent doing things that are unrelated and not specific to martial arts varies wildly from one instructor/dojo to another. It also depends on how much time there is for one session. Currently the sessions are 2 1/2hours to 3hrs on 4 evenings per week. Quite common for a dojo in Okinawa/Japan, but this is much longer than the average dojo elsewhere apparently. Moat of that time is spent doing karate things. Only about 20-30min is used for general training involving traditional weights and the usual body weight exercises(push-ups, etc…). Correct technique and how to do these is explicitly taught, but it is something emphasized as “out of dojo training”. It is expected that everyone practices this and kihon as much as possible, like “homework”

It takes a certain kind of dedication, commitment and perhaps obsession to maintain serious investment and interest in an activity that is not essential to a comfortable, happy living. Life always seems to find a way to frustrate most endeavours and priorities can change very quickly. It is all the more admirable when one can manage it because of the incredible self-discipline it takes to find and keep the balance between training martial arts(or whatever else) and everything essential to living comfortably such as a home, an income, good food and a stable safe place to live. With very few exceptions, most people have trouble with at least one of these things at some point during their lives.

@sensei8 Is the posture/stance explicitly taught as part of kata like the Uechiryu “woah, chill dude” one seen in so many of their kata? Or is it something more of a kumite/application thing taught separately? It is interesting that this does not seem to be the case with the other heavily Shuri-te influenced ryuha, mine included

@sensei8Does yours have the hands out in the same way as in Uechiryu? What about it is similar and what is different? The hypothesis of the OP is that the posture might have been something common to Okinawan martial arts, perhaps originating in the Chinese martial arts from the time long before the styles known as karate were named and “seperated” into the ryuha known post-WW2. Probably going as far back as Matsumura or earlier. It is interesting and maybe telling that the stance doesn’t seem to be known/used outside of Uechiryu, yet you are the second person from a Shorin/shurite style to say it exists. Having trained only in kobayashi shorin ryu(2 different lineages), this posture never was taught, demonstrated or practiced in any dojo.

It would be immensely helpful to illustrate if pictures could be found to compare what you describe from Matsumura seito with what is familiar from uechi ryu. In the M.S posture are the open hands held in exactly the same way or are there minor differences between that and what is seen in uechi ryu?

The open handed hands in front starting or ready position used in Okinawa uechi ryu karate makes a lot of sense for practical defensive use. Does anyone have an idea of where or how it came to be? Perhaps it is another feature of this style’s Chinese roots. None of the other Okinawan or Japanese martial arts have anything similar. Are there other martial arts in the world with something similar?