devil dog

I guess I did not read your earlier post well enough or did not realize what you had said. My apologies.

I can see this from both perspectives. I admire your humility and willingness to dawn a white belt. Not many higher ranking Karateka want others to think of them as a student. But in reality we are all students. Knowing what was in your heart and mind I believe you made what you believed to be the right decision. My instructor, years ago, started class wearing a white belt to illustrate that we are all students and it is always good to have a beginners mind. I have in the past followed his teachings and have done this myself. However you and your CI have a dojo together and what you do reflects on him and the art. By telling you to train under this other instructor in the dojo he showed humility and showed that he is more interested in you learning and advancing even if that means you doing it under someone else. This is the mark of a good instructor and shows concern for his student's advancement rather than his pride. By wearing a white belt as a head instructor in your/Ci's dojo you discredit your arts teachings and risk students and parents seeing you learning from him as a student rather than an instructor getting instruction from another instructor. This may give them the impression that his way is better. The appearance being that the head instructor is learning from him as his student in your own dojo. This would be detrimental to your school. I understand where you are coming from and admire you for it but on the other hand it does not show respect for your Sensei or your art. It would be different if you were taking a new art. If I were given the same opportunity I would wear the belt you were given to show respect to your Sensei and your art. You can show this new instructor respect without wearing a white belt. I have taken instruction from many other instructors both within and outside of my chosen art. If starting a new art I most definitely will wear a white belt but if taking instruction inside of mine or my Sensei's dojo I wear my rank. The same is true when teaching as a guest in someone else's dojo. I wear my rank and they wear theirs. It is not a sign of disrespect to wear your rank even though you may be getting instruction in a new art or style, especially in your own dojo. If you chose to become his student then I would suggest doing it at a different location. Just my 2 cents on the matter. By the way I noticed that you are in Ohio. Where in ohio are you located? I trained in Matsubayashi Ryu as a kid in Loveland OH under Sensei Peters and ended up meeting O'Sensei Nagamine years later on a trip to Okinawa to train.

Well I found some reasonable insurance with the help of my friend. I also sat down and talked to him and three of his senior Sensei (not sure if this is right in Korean, he kept calling them master) or maybe Shihan. I am not at all interested in going under their organization. Too many things did not add up and would not make sense for me and my students. They were very kind to offer but had to decline their offer. My Sensei wants me to sit down with him and several of our senior Sensei to discuss this. I agreed. Hopefully this will be to tell me they have a solution. We'll see.

Definitely a Japanese style. Having the junior instructors run the warm ups is smart. I do the same. I teach all of the classes but to give myself a break I have my instructors run the warm ups and sometimes even the Kihon so I can make corrections and watch their teqhnique. I teach two classes a night 3 nights a week and I am old so letting your instructors run small portions of the class gives old guys like me a break and allows us to assess progress and make corrections. Sounds to me like a good school. The only way to truly know is to study for a while and make up your own mind if it has been benificial, you are learning and progressing, and most importantly love doing it. There are plenty of resources on line to research and you can also go check out the other schools in the area. Most offer a few free lessons and you can assess how they teach compared to your Sensei. But based on your limited explaination I would say it sounds like a good school. Welcome and good luck.

I could not have put it better and is exactly how I feel. Well put.

Sensei8, I have never heard of a trash bag being used either but I would assume it would be used in the same manner as a piece of rope or belt to trap, divert the opponents attack or to strangle. My best guess anyway. Interesting concept though I must admit. That's what I call thinking outside of the box or inside of the trash can.

Sensei8, I aprreciate the comments. That is exactly why I decided to test. Well I did a little digging and found information on insurance through one of my long time friends who is also an instructor in another style. He offered to bring me into the fold. I guess their association encompasses many styles and said that I could teach under what ever name I choose and teach what ever I choose. I thought this to be very fishy and have heard of such organizations that will take on anyone as long as they pay. I agreed to talk with him and one of the board members about this but I am very skeptical at this point. He says that they charge a low fee, will provide insurance, authenticate and guarentee lineage (not sure how they do that when they are korean based but...), provide certificates, belts, uniforms etc. I will try to keep an open mind but quite honestly it does not sound very ethical but we'll see. I also called a few companies today and got quotes (not so cheap). I also tried going back to my association and explain the issue and told them that raising rates would drive 60% of my students and instructors out the door. I was told that due to increased insurance rates (which I can somewhat believe after getting a few quotes) and the cost of sending their senior instructors to check on schools and instructors and to sit on rank promotion exams (I do not understand this since we pay for them to come once a year and they usually stay with me and all food is provided. not sure where the extra expenses are), and a host of other reasons they have no choice but to increase the rates and I was assured that this effects everyone and this is not to target me, my instructors or my students. When I told them that if this happened I would have to think hard about staying, they humbly told me that would be my choice but would make little difference in their decision due to financial reasons already discussed. I thanked them for their time and ended the call. Not sure what to do. Not really interested in joining an organization that encompasses every known art. But I am really not interested in paying or passing on the cost of the insurance which would be only slightly less than what we will be paying in fee's. Not really a win win that I thought I would find. I still have to call other companies and see if there are better rates out there so I still have hope. I do have the choice of teaching as a cheif instructor under my Sensei but I hate to loose any of my students. Most of them have been with me since they were knee high to a grasshopper. I have watched them grow into adults and some into really proficient instructors. But if I can not find adequate means of insurance most of my students will be leaving anyway. At least this way the remainder could transfer into his dojo and I would still see them. The draw back would be that I would not be able to teach them all since I will be teaching only the advanced students. What to do? Not sure. Any suggestions or as originally posted do any of you know where I can find good affordable insurance?

I teach Shorin Ryu and Kobudo. The weapons I have studied are as follows; Rokushaku Bo, Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, Nunti, Timbei and Rochin, Tuifa, Kiwa, Eku, and Suruchin. I can only say I am proficient with three of these weapons. (Rokushaku Bo, Kama and Sai) I have never seen the Pinan katas used for sai but can see the practical application. We practice Kusanku with the sai. All other kata are seperate from our empty hand forms.

You can measure Good Will by the way you are treated and if your students and the community respect you. I would add to the list humility, honesty and respect. If you are humble, honest and respectful these things will be returned to you ten fold both in retention, future students and the respect of the community. Yes we make them sweat and bring them pain and even sometimes yell at them but what makes them keep coming back is the way you carry yourself and the way you treat them. If your students feel bullied then they wish you no good will but rather disdain and will most likely leave you. But if your students aspire to be like you and show you respect without enforcement then you know that you have done them a service as a teacher. Good will follows kindness. Kindness comes from humilty, honesty and respect for others. I also think if you are passionate about what you are doing it shows and others become passionate as well. Just my humble opinion for what it's worth.

I appreciate the suggestions and comments. I'm not to concerned with the certificates themselves. I have the certificates on a disk and have the approved paper (both weight and dimension) so I could easily change a few things on them to avoid copy write infringement. The insurance is the main thing. I need to spend time this week end and see what options are out there. As far as my own advancement, I'm not overly concerned with this either. I have stayed at the same rank for years past when my piers have tested and moved on. It's mostly political at the higher ranks and truthfully I really do not like the butt kissing and behind the scenes stuff that goes on. I truely love teaching and passing on the art. Beyond that it's for someone much more ambitious than myself. However I had two students advance to Yondan recently and was more or less pushed into advancing myself. It looks like I have some home work to do. I guess I need to put some feelers out there and see if our sister organizations would be interested in pulling me into the fold. I appreciate the fact that there is a place like these forums that you can contribute, ask questions and talk to other instructors outside of the coccon of my own art and association. I am new to the forums and for that matter any kind of outlet like this and have found it very informative and enjoyable. Thanks for the input. Domo arigato gozaimashita!

I received a letter from our association that our fee's will increase 20% this year to cover a whole host of expenses that don't really apply to me or any other instructor. After talking with my students and instructors and learning that most of them will have to stop training due to financial concerns I have been thinking about leaving the association and going rogue. Since I teach out of my pole barn on my property it will not effect me as far as finding a new place to train. My worries are rank legitimacy and insurance. All Dan certifications are sent to the main Hombu for authorization. If I leave they will only have my name and stamp on certificates. They also take care of all insurance requirements and I would have to find affordable insurance. Have any of you gone through this? How did it effect you? My instructors (under me) have been talking about going rogue even if if I choose to stay with in the association. I need to find out more information but I believe I have made my mind up to leave but I just don't know enough about how it will effect me. To make matters worse I am going for my promotion to Rokudan in April. If I leave I'm not sure that can happen. Can any of you give an old karateka guidance?

You can't get along with everyone all the time. There will always be different personality types. The imprtant thing is are you learning? Is what they teach solid and correct? Do you think they know what they are doing? If they are good teachers it really doesn't matter if their personalities are a bit rough. If they are pushy that may mean that they will push you past what you think you are capable of doing. This is a good thing and what you should be looking for as a sudent. Rudeness is subjective. Are they purposely picking you out and being rude directly to you? If not it may just be a personality trait or the way they were taught. If they are good teachers (if you've taken an art before you can spot a fraud or a skilled professional) then my opinion would be to just listen and do what they say and see if you are progressing. If in a couple of months you think their instruction has been detrimental versus helpful, look for a different school/teacher. I have been accused of being to rough and loud. It's the Marine in me and it can't be taken out. However after a couple of weeks training my students realize thats just how I talk and train but that I really do care about each and everyone of them. I still have the same students that entered my first class 20+ years ago. Give them a chance and see what you think in a month or so. You might find out they are really good teachers with a few personality flaws. Good luck and keep training.

I guess I'm not going to be unpopular here but I have a hard time understanding how a 10 year old is able to test for Shodan much less that he has not engaged in Kumite that much. No disrespect intended but IMHO you can not be a BB without extensive experience in Kumite. We start our students by allowing them to spar slowly and restric them to one or two techniques. As they progress and their technique and control increases so does the speed, power and freedom with which they engage in Kumite. Our Sankyu are engaging in Jiyu Kumite. If he is afraid of Kumite and his instructor has not properly trained him in Kumite then he should not IMHO be testing for Shodan. Quite honestly I do not feel that a 10 year old has the maturity level to test for Shodan but I digress. Getting hit and making contact is part of overcoming your fears and learning how to defend oneself. Kumite is an essential part of Karate and should be practiced often. All of my classes train in the basics - Kihon, Kata and Kumite. If you leave out Kumite you are not training in Karate IMHO.

The first teacher I had was teaching out of his garage. I have trained in basements, churches, gymnasiums of schools and commercial spaces. To be honest it's all good as long as you have adequate space for your students to train. When my rent got to high and the land lord would not negotiate because he had a better offer waiting in the wings I started teaching out of my basement in the winter and during bad weather and outside in the summer and good weather. My students did not mind because they were not paying what I had to charge them while renting a space. I abuilt a pole bard 40x50 two years ago and use it know. One of my advanced students (Sandan) teaches in a commercial space and from time to time and I will come in for testings and to instruct his senior students but to be honest I much prefer the pole barn. Much more room and a heck of a lot cheaper (free). The best part is I can make any changes I want to without the permission of a landlord. The only down fall is advertising. I am in the country and not close to highways so all advertising comes from students word of mouth. It is not the best case scenario but I do not depend on teaching to make a living so it doesn't really affect me that much and again the rent is free.

I had a white belt tell me that I did not teach traditional Karate because his last teacher told him that his style was true traditional Karate and he taught differently from the way I was teaching. This got me to thinking about what makes tradition... traditional. The only answer I could give the yound man is that I teach the way my teacher and his teacher taught. There are some differences because everyone teaches differently. I still make everyone learn the techniques in Japanese/Okinawan and use Japanese/Okinawan commands. Our students bow in when entering or leaving the dojo floor, bow to their Sensei, bow to the Kamiza (founders), use respect when talking to Sempai and fellow deshi. I do not have wierd colored obi or gi's. I do not have special classes for this and that that costs more money. I only test a student when I think he is ready to be tested and not before due to some scheduled time frame. But when you think about it everything changes and ways of teaching are altered from one teacher to the next. What is to say that I am truly teaching traditional Karate or is it a hibrid of what was truly traditional? I like to think that we are adhering to the way it was originally taught but in hindsight I realize that I have changed things from what my Sensei taught. Not the actual techniques so much as the performance of those techniques. I may perfom a back fist slightly different than the way he does for example. Whose to say one of my students aren't teaching a slightly modified version of what I taught to them? I know the way I perform Kata differs from the way my Sensei does. This is encouraged to some degree to make it your own so to speak. Not actually changing the movements or techniques within the kata but the way in which it is performed and the tempo of the kata. It begs the question - what does traditional truly mean and are we teaching it or a slight hibrid of what it originally was? I love when the students get you thinking about things you never considered. I learn more from them than I think I ever teach them.

I think I'm going to be the odd man out but even if you are promoted to Shodan I personally do not feel you are ready to teach on your own. Our Shodan do not go out and start teaching or open their own Dojo's. In my art you are considered an assistant instructor (JunShidoin) and still need to be supervised by a higher grade instructor perferably a Sandan or above. I do apologize if I offend you and no disrespect is meant but if you are in reality a higher skill level than you wear and you are holding back your testing because you want to win tournaments then you are not ready to teach others. This is an honesty and ethical issue. If you were to tell me this I would never join your class because you are cheating the system. If you want to teach others you first have to learn how to overcome obsticals and accept the challenges that each rank holds. If you are actually rated as a Sankyu or even a Nikyu or Ikkyu and fighting at a Yonkyu level you are being dishonest to your competitors and to yourself. In plain speak you are not as good as you think you are. You are just cheating the system and beating others with less skill which means the trophies mean nothing. This is not the mark of an instructor. It sounds to me that you need to take a long look at yourself and ask yourself what the spirit of Karate really means. IMHO you are not ready to teach and certainly not to open a dojo in a church. What do you think the pastor would say if he knew your were holding yourself back just so you could win. Not a very Christain thing to do and certainly not worthy of an instructor. If your instructor believes you are at a higher rank level then you should test for it. If you can not compete or do not do as well at the higher ranks then that tells you you need more time at that level. Beating those less proficient is not an accomplishment. And I am with every one else here on the jump of 4 grades. How is this possible? If you are holding yourself back to be able to win tournaments doesn't that tell your instructor that you are not at the Shodan level? I'm confused. I'm sure you are a nice guy and did not mean to purposely cheat the system but you need to further analize what you are doing here and if you think this is the actions of a Sensei. I can tell you it's not the actions of any instructor I have had the priviledge to study under.

My sensei was a lineman for the power company and still held 4 hours of classes 4 nights a week and 3 hours on Saturday. I am an electrical engineer full time and teach 3 nights a week and one day (saturday) on the week end.

My Sensei had us do knuckle push ups, wall sits, squat jumps, sit ups and if it was really bad we would get hit with a shinai on the back of the legs. It was a great way to condition our bodies but as far as punishment went it ended up distracting the class more than teaching us a lesson and the classes ended up going down hill from there. My personal way of disciplining is to pull the individual aside after class and talk with them. If it is a child I have the parent come with us and I explain that if it happens again they will be asked to sit and watch everyone train and if they persist in distracting the class I will ask them to leave until they think they can rejoin the class without distraction. If it is an adult I will talk with them one on one. However if enough students are joining in on the distractions I have done what our DI's in the Corps did in boot camp which is force the entire class to perform push ups and wall sits. This worked extremely well because they would rather train than do push up for an hour or two. I explain that since they do not want to train we will excersize. I rarely have any issues.

Depends on the style. white brown black white yellow orange blue green 1,2 brown 1,2 black white green 1,2,3 brown 1,2,3 black white yellow orange green purple black

I can see it both ways but I personally have never started an art and wore my previous belt. I would be humble and let the instructor decide where you belong. If you were a purple belt and he asks you to wear a white belt just look at it this way... you'll progress faster and may just pick up on something you didn't know before. How many of us get past a belt and if not required on the next rank forget about a technique or stop practicing it? When I started Goju Ryu I was a Sandan in Shorin Ryu. I started at white and rightfully so. What's the saying, "empty your cup so that I may fill it". If you go into an art with preconceived notions of your ability you miss those little intricacies that you'll learn if you keep an open mind and you will turn into a much better martial artist. Plus your instructor will know where you were and you will climb the ladder quicker so a belt starting out really doesn't matter. Be humble and have an open mind. The belt means only what you put into it anyway. The reward of earning a belt in a new style far exceeds being able to wear your former rank. Go into it with an open mind and enjoy learning.

Zaine, I couldn't agree more with you. I have bad joints from old sports injuries (knees and one elbo). I actually feel better after a session of makiwara training. Was never sure why that was but after your explaination it does make sense. I had never heard this before. The explainations of benifits have always been what I already knew from years of practice. By using a makiwara the student learns the proper body alignment, proper angle, proper use of body mechanics (coming from the feet, through the hips, into the torso and extending out through the arm), and the proper way to meet the striking surface to the target. If done inproperly the result is pain. Over years of training and hundreds of strikes in a session the student build confidence and begins to delive their full power into the strike. Once this is achieved it is almost impossible to strike incorrectly. This is the main reason I brought up Tamishiwari (breaking). I can not imagine walking up to a target, let's say a couple of tiles (non-kiln dried) and striking it with enough force to break them without conditioning the striking surface first. Can you imagine hitting the air for years and then being asked to break something (hard target) for a test. Not me brother! I was watching a program on TV I think sports science or something of that nature. They were explaining how the bone breaks down and fills in each time we condition that body part. Over time the bone becomes more dense and becomes harder to damage. Simple logic tells us that if two objects meet one will give. If the target is stronger than your striking surface you will be the object that gives which translates to an injury. Personally I think that conditioning so that I am not the object that gives is a good idea.

Sensei8, I took judo from a 72 year old man that threw us around like rag dolls and was in better shape than most of us. My Sensei is 84 and has been in the arts for 69 years. I am up there as well and find that the things I could so as a kid aren't as easy now. I have high blood pressure and my joints are less than perfect after years of abusing them. I teach 2 nights a week and take lessons 1 night a week and on Saturday and run with my dogs for 1 to 3 miles on my off nights. Right now is hunting season and were I hunt is pretty hilly. Nothing like draging a deer out a 1/4 of a mile to get your heart rate up. I don't think age is the deciding factor of whether you can train for 30 minutes or more. It's you over all health thats the important factor. I feel good and my body hasn't fallen apart yet so I continue to train. Of course I'm not going to try to do the same things I was able to when I was 20 nor could I. But I do what I can and as of right now I can still get out of bed the next morning without my wife helping me so life is good.

Thank you for the welcomes. I also studied Matsubayashi Ryu in high school but stopped when I joined the corps mostly because there were no MR dojo's. I took up Matsumura Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu and Ryukyu Kempo over the years and all had conditioning to varying degrees. In my mind conditioning is like Kata. It would not be Karate without it. I understand his argument and respect him for his beliefs but sincerely think he is wrong. I have injured myself early on in my study, mostly because I was goofing around, but I have not injured myself in the last 30+ years. My favorite conditioning tool is the Makiwara. I believe from my experience that it not only conditions the striking surface but also trains the student to perform the strike correctly, proper body mechanics, and builds power and destructive force over time. If a student is taught the correct technique they are able to build up over time and strike with more power until they can put their full force into every strike. Pain (not injury) is a good teacher and a great motivator to perform your strikes correctly. If done properly you do not injure yourself. We do not use breaking as a means of testing our students but rather as a confidence booster and a means by which the student can test his abilities to strike correctly. I personally would not ask a student to perform Tamishiwari without the proper instruction and conditioning. IMHO this would be irresponsible. I have just about every style of makiwara and they are in both the dojo and in my home. I train on them just about every day with out fail. I am able to strike a solid surface with full power in my belief because of conditioning. I look at it from a practical point of view. I do not condition to break boards. I condition so that I do not get injured while in the process of defending myself. When I was a kid I remember one of my piers got into a fight and broke his hand and three of his knuckles because he hit the other guy in the head. I think you are far more likely to get injured without proper conditioning than with. Just my 2 cents for what that is worth.

I never understood giving kids the rank of Shodan or higher. Our students are a reflection of us as instructors and more importantly of our dojo and our art. I have had kids (12 - 14 yrs) enter my school and tell me they hold the rank of Shodan and even one that held the rank of Sandan. In my experience they do not measure up to the rank in experience, knowledge and maturity. And in fact would not measure up to my Gokyu. There are rare cases when a student of 15 is awarded a Shodan but for the most part you have to be 16 to be considered for Shodan in my art. All those younger are give a provisional rank of Shodan Ho. The problem I see with kids holding higher ranks is they do not have the maturity level that is needed. What I mean by that is the physical ability, mental ability, knowledge and life experience. If you give belts out like passing out candy how then will others look at you as an instructor and more importantly at your art? A rank without warrant is just a belt without meaning behind it.

I am new to the forum. I have been training now for 36 years and have studied 7 Okinawan and Japanese arts. I am presently a Godan in Shorin Ryu. I was talking with one of my friends who is a TKD instructor recently and was told by him that they do not condition their bodies. I found this hard to believe because they practice breaking from what I know about it and believe they use this as a means of testing. Why would they not condition the weapon they use? He said that they do not use any form of conditioning including makiwara because it could injure the student. I have been practicing Makiwara for as long as I've been in the arts. I have injured myself but mostly when I was trying to strike too hard or if I was not focused on the task at hand. Plus after a few years of practice it teaches you to strike correctly so you do not get hurt when striking and or breaking objects and can put full power behind every strike. Do all of you condition in your arts and do you have arguments for or against conditioning? I have a hard time understanding why you would have deshi practice tamashiwari and not practice hojo undo. It doesn't make sense to me. I would think you could injure yourself worse attempting a break without conditioning.