devil dog

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Thats an interesting question. I would say that you are the rank you earned. It really doesn't matter if you are no longer capable of praticing or teaching at that level because of inactivity or disability. You earned it! What if you are the baddest Karateka in the world or the best teacher in the world and you get into a car crash and can no longer walk. Do you deserve to be stripped of your rank? I don't ever remember signing something that says that you remain at this level or your rank will be taken back. Now on the other hand should someone be able to teach at that level or oversee an organization if they have been inactive for years. Who's to say. I guess the argument can be made that they are not of sufficient skill to hold a position or run a dojo. However I have see 300+ pound lazy slobs that run their dojo's and have their Shodans and Nidans run the classes. If ever there were a case for demotion whould this not be the case. But they are still teaching and still retain their rank. Why? Because you can loose the skil but the knowledge can not be taken away by inactivity or disability. I do not agree with having Jaba the Hut teach me or should I say his underlings teaching me because he can't get up from behind his desk but you can not take away the fact that he knows more than you might ever learn. This has value and the belt represents that knowledge base. How can you take that away? Titles I guess could be a different story. They are honorary and technically could be stripped away if the individual does not live up to their title. However if you have put the blood, sweat and tears into earning the rank of what ever Dan you should have it for life. Not everyone achieves it and life does have a way of getting into the way and divering some from the path. But this does not negate the fact that it was earned and the knowledge was learned. I say no. Rank id for life!

I read somewhere that two individuals while studying in Japan took Shotokan from Funikoshi Sensei and later upon their return to Korea invented Tae Kwon Do. I do not know if this is true but it makes sense since a good friend of mine was taking TKD while I was taking Shorin Ryu when we were kids and he was practicing Pinan kata's. We thought that was weird at the time until I read the article and it seemed to make more sense.

Yes sir you absolutely do.

Nidan Melbourne, I agree. There is also another benifit to teaching which is you actually start to think about what you are doing in a different way and why you are doing it opposed to just taking direction and mimicking what you are taught. In my experience I have learned more and gained a deeper understanding through teaching because you have to show and explain the techniques in detail. You now get asked the same questions that you asked and you have to come up with the answers. It's a great way to gain insight and to even self evaluate. You are forced to show the correct way and in doing so you find the flaws that you didn't know existed. Through this I think you become a better MAist. I totally agree that if you were to teach your loved one or even a buddy you get energized all over again.

I resect that. I am a show me not tell me guy as well. However lineage is a great way to verify who you are, who your instructor is and who his instructor is if the organization they came from keeps records. Bar that I agree with you when it comes to showing versus telling. It is possible that a student comes from a very notable instructor and can prove it but could not fight their way out of a paper bag. Lineage does not prove that you are a good practitioner of the art or that you are a good instructor it just gives a basis of proof to claims. Heaven knows there are a dime a dozen instructors with phony credentials out there. Lineage is also a way to learn the history of an art and also a way to understand how your art developed and who or what styles influenced it. Example: there are probably 15 to 20 sub branches of Shorin Ryu. Some are pretty direct back to Mastumura and some come from Matsumura and the influences of other arts and teachers. It is a good thing to know why your Pinan Shodan is slightly different from their Pinan Shodan or why they have certain Tomari Te or Naha Te based kata's and you don't. It opens the students mind to finding answers on their own and understand why their art is what it is. It is a great teaching tool and it keep the past alive through the next generation. Just my 2 cents for what that is worth.

I was talking with a fellow Karateka and the subject of lineage came up. I wanted to ask how important is lineage in your art? Do you know your lineage? In every art I have studied (Okinawan and Japanese) lineage is very important. My main art (Matsumura Shorin Ryu) lineage is as follows; Kusanku Sakugawa Tode Matsumura "Bushi" Sokon Matsumura Nabe Hohan Sokon Yuichi Kuda

[b]1. Where are you from?[/b] Kentucky [b]2. Why did you get started in the martial arts?[/b] I met an instructor who showed me the martial arts and I fell in love with it and have been training ever since. [b]3. Please briefly describe the styles of martial arts that you have taken and your ranks in them.[/b] Matsumura Shorin Ryu - Godan, Goju Ryu - Yonkyu, Isshin Ryu - Gokyu, Okinawan Kenpo - Nidan, Kobudo - Sandan, Judo - Yonkyu, Matsubayashi Shorin ryu - Gokyu, Iaido - Nidan. [b]4. Do you remember how you found KarateForums.com? Why did you join? And why did you stay?[/b] Looking for a place that had like minded people outside of my dojo. Lurked around and liked what I was reading. I enjoy hearing others opinions and the vast knowledge that can be found hear. [b]5. What does KarateForums.com mean to you?[/b] A chance to learn from others and share my experience with others. [b]6. Can you share a memorable moment within the community where you received great advice or an experience that really affected you and your martial arts journey?[/b] I guess that would be early in my journey my Sensei(s) taught me that anything can be overcome with hard work and detirmination.

Credo Te, Solid Post and excellent explanation!

Yes I have had a few adults that I would not trust with weapons as well. But again that falls back on the instructor to assess a students capabilities and decide whether they are competent enough to begin weapons training. You know about 8 years ago one of my students brought in a foam covered Nunchaku and after seeing them and trying them out I decided to try them out thinking that I could start teaching students earlier and younger. After awhile I decided not to use them again. I know they make practice weapons and they are safer than the real thing. However I noticed that students started to loose all fear of using them and in doing so started breaking good form that would keep them from being hit. When switching back to real weapons with the added weight they seemed to hit themselves more often. To each his own but I don't use them. The only practice weapon we use per say is the Kama, Yari, and Rochin. We use wooden blades in place of the real thing while they are learning. Once they more to the advanced classes they start learning with the real deal but at that time they have proper form and, knock on wood", I have not had a serious injury yet.

I am not a proponent of child black belts. Our rule of thumb is a minimum of 16 yrs old, however that is at the instructors discretion. If the instructor thinks that the student is not mature enough or does not possess the abilities to test for Shodan then they are not tested. Most of the students after seeing what the Shodan test entails are not too eager to jump the gun. You do not want a child fighting adult black belts. They tend to get hurt beyond what is reasonable. That being said Kyokushin and what I've read and seen of it is pretty hard core comparitively to my art. It reminds me of my early days in the arts when you were lucky if you could walk out of the dojo after your Shodan test. If he is expecting this 15 year old to stand toe to toe with adult BB's in knock down bouts I would say you have a good reason to be concerned. Personally I have never promoted a 15 year old to Shodan and very few 16 year olds. The ttypical age in my dojo is 17 to 18 years old. And by the way we do not have junior BB's. We use the Shodanho (provisional) rank for students under the age of 16.

I am with Sensei8. We test one at a time. The only thing we differ on is the amount of graders. Kyu is tested by the instructor alone up to Sankyu. At Sankyu the instructor and a witness sit in on the grading. At Dan a panel of 3 to 5 judges sit in on every testing. One of which is the instructor. The grades must be 3 or more ranks above the student being tested. Example: The rank the student is testing for is Nidan then the majority of the board must be Yondan or above. I also agree with his assessment of credibility with more graders. It insures that all mistakes are caught and a true assessment is given to the student. Those that deserve to pass are promoted and those that do not will be failed. Since instructors from other dojos sit in on testing this keeps instructors honest about sending students up for their next Dan grading. We don't typically have unqualified students sent for testing but it has happened and they will be failed. IMHO you owe it to an individual who has trained as long as they have to give them not only all of your attention but also a true assessment by finding thier deficiencies so that they can correct them and improve. Our students reflect us as instructors and they represent our art. It's worth a little extra effort.

I base traditional on what my Sensei and more imortantly our Soke taught. I try hard to maintain the integrity of their teachings. I have incorporated techniques from other styles that I teach separately as added instruction for my students but as far as the main art I try to teach the way I was taught. Of course there are some differences when it comes to Kumite. We can't teach the way we were taught back in the day without getting sued for abuse. But the core of the art is intact. Kihon, Tuite, Kata, Kumite (except for the full hard contact), Kobudo are all taught the way it was handed down. The young man that spurred the question was reflecting on how his old instructor taught compared to me. I was mainly wanting to know what you all thought was traditional and what made it traditional for you. To me its teaching the way the founders taught the art so as not to loose the traditions and techniques that have been passed down. Watering down of an art in my mind does it no justice. I think that most young instructors want to set themselves apart and create something unique or decide that certain techniques do not work or are not as effective as others and they discard them. There are certain techniques that I teach that in my younger days I did not understand nor find purpose in but the magic is as years go by you start to see the way to implement a technique when earlier it was useless. The thing is the founders created these techniques based on real world applications and hid them in kata. Understanding Bunkai, Te, Kyusho and Tuite unlock these hidden techniques and true understanding of the art begins when you understand that instead of a block it is a trap, sweep, throw, or submission. Traditional to me is preserving the art so that we may understand the complexities each art has within.

It really depends on the style and your dedication. Most reach Shodan in 3 to 6 years depending on the style. However the intermediate and advanced Dan ranks are longer between ranks in most styles. I train in Okinawan styles and the average to make Shodan is 5 years and 8 to 9 years (total not combined) to Nidan but some including myself make it in less. The main problem I see with time in grade in some styles is it is a almost set in stone time frame to reach a belt. It really isn't. If student A takes classes two or three nights a week and trains on his own 2 or more hours every day when they are not in class, they shouldn't be held back to the same time frame as student B who only trains while in class. Look at the difference between an Uchi Deshi (live in students) in Okinawa. They reach rank way before their counter parts in America. I lived in Okinawa for 1 year training directly under Soke and his senior instructors and you could see that the students there were under different guidelines and time frames than students here. It's really all relative. I have taken up to 6 years to reach Shodan in one art and in as little as 2.5 years in another. In my mind the instructor should only use time in grade as a guideline not as something set in stone. It should really be based on the student and his abilities, skill and knowledge. Now if we are talking about kids I am not a proponent of kids wearing BB's. I use the same factors to assess children but it's been my experience that kids take twice as long to master the same skills as adults. That is why I use a different ranking system for them. Once they reach the age of 16 they switch to the adult ranking system or if they are proficient and they prove that they have not only the ability, skill level and knowledge but also the mental maturity it takes to be a Yudansha in my mind then they are promoted. One thing you will not see (at least in the schools I trained in) in Okinawa is 10 year old black belts.

I was not taught Bunkai until Sankyu when I was coming up through the ranks. However I teach my students Bunkai early on. We teach Fukyugata Ichi and Ni as the beginner kata's because they are very straight forward and easy to learn. I will show them the most basic applications for these kata. When we move to Naihanchi's, Pinan's, Niseidi's, Ananku, Rohai, Kusanku, etc. These can really get broken down and the students can see exactly why the perform a particular movement. I typically ask the students what they think a set of techniques are and usually get very basic answers like kick, punch, block. When I show them the different applications and they realize that there are throws, joint locks, etc. they light up and it gets their mind thinking outside the box. It's an invaluable teaching tool.

I was talking to one of my fellow instructors and the subject of when to teach bunkai came up. When do you start to teach your students Bunkai? Or should I say at what Kyu or Dan level?

Sensei8, your right that it is my choice and I realize there are very young kids learning kobudo. I do not judge their instructor because that is his personal choice and he has to follow what he thinks is right. The decision I made was based on years of seeing to many mishaps and near misses. I short story that I keep with me to this day. I was around 15 or 16 and was taking a Kobudo class with around 14 other students. We had been studying the Rokushaku Bo for around a year and todays class was the beginning stages of Kumite or I should say pre-arranged sparring. The instructor was showing us the attachers moves and then the defenders. He released us to practice what he had just shown us. Two young men were practicing over near the back wall which had a full length mirror affixed to it. I had noticed them but did not have the foresight to know what would happen. One of them hit the mirror cracking it and shards hit the ground. One of the boys in haste to move out of the way of the glass cracked the other on the side of the head rendering him unconscious. To make matters worse he fell into the broken glass. This is an extreme example but I have a hundred more that make my opinion on teaching children. I take safety seriously and care about all of my students. I tend to err on the side of caution. I would rather hold them back a little to make sure that they can have the maturity and skill level it takes to be safe than to take the chance that they are ready and find out later that they are not. I can see instructor teaching kids the wooden weapons because there is less risk but I can't see teaching bladed weapons. I also wouldn't teach Sanchaku only because I can't seem to keep from cracking myself with them and I'd hate to cry infront of my students. [Warning do not allow old guys to try new weaponry with too many swivel points. Injury is imminent.]

I actually wasn't thinking of having words other than the expletives that were coming out of my mouth at the time. The chief instructor took control of the situation and confiscated the Kama from the young man. I was heading to the restroom to get something to put on it to stop the bleeding. By the time I came out the instructor had dismissed the class and was coming to check on me for the third time to see if a hospital visit was needed. It actually did not cause too much damage other than the scar left behind but you are right a couple of inches lower and blindsville here I come. This is why candidates are chosen carefully based on coordination, skill level, responsibility and maturity. I strongly believe that young kids (under 16) do not need to have a weapon in their hands unless they meet all of the requirements listed above. You are opening yourself up to them hurting themselves, someone else, our you. Not too mention the liability. Years ago during a Iaido test I watched a Iaito blade soar through the air and come just short of stabbing a on looker.The mekugi had worn and fallen out during the demonstration. Again a younger man that did not practice good maintenance and was irresponsible. Any weapon even practice weapons in the hands of the unskilled or irresponsible can be someones worst nightmare. I just won't teach kobudo to kids.

I have seen "youthful masters" as you suggest and some where absolutely beyond impressive but most were given a belt. The way I see it there are those out there that only have an interest in getting to the next rank. If you really think about it if you devote yourself entirely to the MA it is possible to achieve what most of us would think improbable. IMHO I don't know when they have time to prepare. Once I started teaching, time to train for tests became less of a commodity. Once I had to add more classes and more nights a week due to the number of students and their varying ranks it was next to impossible to find time to train for myself. I have been a Godan for more years than I want to say and have passed up promotions too many times because not only did I know I was not doing what was necessary in my own training but the fact of the matter was it was no longer important to me (not really a test for Rokudan and above, mostly political). I look less at the rank or belt and more at the person. If they have a nidan rank but their skill is at a nikyu level then you know that they were given the rank. If they are at a Nidan rank and they perform at a Sandan level then you know they deserve the rank no matter the age. Age is irrelevant unless you're talking about child black belts. I do not subscribe to the belief that kids should be awarded BB's.

Extra solid post! I agree with you 100%. We will not even allow our students to pick up a weapon until they are at least the rank of Nikyu and have the maturity level and coordination to begin training. I have a 2.5" scar over my eye to prove that children should not touch or look at weapons until they are judged to have the proper skil and maturity. I was a guest instructor for a local school about 15 years ago. I ignored my own rule of not teaching youth until evaluated. Anyway the instructor there wanted to build a Kobudo class and wanted me to start training him and his BB's. Two of his BB's were 12 and 14 years old. Very immature I found out. I was going through and showing them Kata and Kihon for the different weapons I teach. I would then pass the weapons around so they could look at them. As I was walking around and answering questions with my back turned to the 12 yr old Shodan I felt the blade (dull but still enough) of a kama cut my forehead. Apperently my situational awareness was asleep that night because from all account this child was goofing around and swing the Kama wildly. I was so caught up in helping one of there instructors with the Eku that I never saw it coming. Needless to say I stopped going to that school and had the head instructor come to mine for instruction so he could teach his students.

I may be cutting ties with my organization soon per my previous post "thinking about going rogue". After looking into the benifits and down falls I can give them to you as I see them. Benifits - freedom, no dues, fee's or credential charges, no one to restrict your methods, and the ability to incorporate techniques from other styles. Down falls - no more rank progression (if thats important to you) I guess you could proclaim your self Soke and make your rank what ever you want but that would be cheesy. You have to provide the services that your organization provided such as certificates, gi and obi (not really a big deal you can buy them just about anywhere online I found out), insurance, insurance, insurance, the backing of the organization if you get sued, lineage for your students past just you, other small items like style patches (again you can purchase online), witnesses for Dan promotions (required in the Okinawan side of the arts, at least three on Shodan and up), further instruction from senior instructors, access to tournaments and summer camps (if you do these sort of things), etc, etc, etc. It is really up to the individual. If you are going to go rogue I would suggest that you have a higher rank in your style to lend legitimacy to your dojo. In talking to other instructors in my area they all recommended that you be at least a Sandan and have had your own dojo for years so that your reputation is already established. You don't want to open a dojo and no one in the area know who you are. I have not personally come to a decision but my decision is based on whether issues change or have come to a acceptable solution. If I were you I would really ponder the ramifications of leaving before you make a decision. There is definitely a lot to think about. Best wishes and good luck.

I really don't think it matters how many belts there are as long as quality is taught and it makes sense. When I started at the age of 8 we had two belts. White and Black. When I was a teenager they incorporated two more belts to go as follows; white, green, brown and black. Now there are several more and even more for the youth. If the time frame stays the same from white to black then I fail to see how it would matter. I am sure there are nefarious reasons for including more belts such as more money but I believe that most instructors do it as a means of energizing their younger students and breaking down the material so they do not become overwhelmed with the content. The system I use for adults is white, green, green + tag, brown, brown + tag, brown + 2 tags and use white, yellow, orange, blue, green, green + tag, brown, brown + tag for my youth classes. There are 6 kyu ranks for adults and 8 for kids. The curriculum stays the same. Normal time to Shodan is 5 years. I have found that it gives the kids a goal and a feeling of accomplishment that keeps them energized. Most adults do not need the extra stimulus of earning yet another belt so the 4 belt system works. I have had anywhere from 2 belts up to 10 belts to black belt in the different arts I have studied and it really did not make a difference. The cuririculum is the same just broken down into easy to chew bite size pieces so to speak.

Kusotare, I agree and humbly disagree with you on the subject of cutting bone. The swordsmiths of old would test their swords on condemned prisoners. There are swords that cut up to 4 bodies (rated the best). They would record the type of cut on the tang. I have a sword that was handed down to me that has these recorded cuts on them. The reason behind this was to show the quality of the sword. The most difficult cut (and I can no longer remember the actual terminology for each cut performed) was diagonally from the collar bone to the hip. Some of the lesser cuts were cutting through the arm. They even stacked men one on top of the other and cut through them to test the quality of the sword. I agree if the angle and blade geometry is not right then the blade can be damaged or chipped when cutting through bone. However if you practice Tamashigiri you know that the bamboo through the goza mat is symbolizing bone both in density, drag, and friction. The Katana was designed to cut through fuedal armor and through bone. I am not saying that this is or was the perfered method of dispatching ones enemy but a good quality Katana can and is designed to cut through flesh and bone. The curvature, geometry and the way the practitioner is taught to use it was and is to cut through the human body. As horrific as that might be it is true.

to answer your question RW - yes and no. it really depends on the material that they are made from, how they were heat treated and tempered, if they were differentially clay hardened or not, what type of quenchant was used, and if the user actually has any skill when using one. If the proper accepted materials have been used Tamahagane, 1055, 1075, 1080, L6 Banite, etc, the heat treatment was correct (as far as proper temperature, soak time, and time), proper quenchant was used for the specific steel that will not produce to brittle of a blade, and the proper temper is performed with a differentially hardened blade then you should have no problems. The problems you get typically is a martial artist with no formal training in Iaido or Kenjutsu goes out and buys a cool looking sword for $100 or so and decides he wants to practice Tamishigiri and ends up breaking the sword due to cheap material or improper technique. If a katana is made from stainless steel do not use it to cut with! If your looking to purchase a Katana for Tamashigiri practice you'll need to do your home work and inquire about the material used, construction, blade geometry, if it is a solid construction or was made in the traditional manner with a soft core, and most importantly if it was constructed for Tamashigiri. Keep one thing in mind if you are planning on using it you need proper instruction on how to use it. And yes you can shatter steel if the carbon content is too high and was not heat treated and tempered correctly. I have witnessed a practitioner snap a brand new Katana in half on the first cut. Dangerous exercise when you are dealing with cheap materials. However if it is a good quality blade you can make hundreds of cuts without fear of damage to the sword orr yourself providing that your cutting technique is correct.

It is not only possible it happens more than you think. On a trip to Okinawa I had a senior instructor not only dump me on my butt but made me want to stay there. I am 6'2" and 230 lbs, he is 5' nothing and I would guess no more than 135 lbs. My 12 year old daughter took me down during her Gokyu test and there was nothing I could do about it. Leverage, speed and proper technique is all that is required. I am not saying that once you take them down you get down and try to finish the fight with a much stronger opponent. You need to use a finishing technique and run!!!!!!!! When I was just a youngster I was tall and skinny and I could never compete when it came to wrestling a stronger opponent. However I was quicker than most and knew how to use there body against them and apply proper leverage. I don't care how big a guy is if proper technique is used he/she will go down every time. Now if your talking about fighting the same applies. If you hit someone in the right place it's lights out or down they go in a lot of pain without needing to be built like a tank. One of my students took a womens self defense course in Krav Maga and they taught her a lot of great techniques to combat a larger stronger opponent. She came back and shared these techniques with the women in my dojo and I sat in to watch and played the attacker. If you get hit in the throat and can't breath - you can't fight, You get hit in the eyes and can't see - you can't fight, you get hit in the knee and can't stand you can't fight. Simple little techniques like this allow a women to fight off larger opponents and flee to safety. After seeing and experiencing this first hand there is a lot of merit to these techniques and can help a smaller person deal with a larger attacker.