CredoTe

Welcome to KF! I look forward to your knowledge, experience, and wisdom to add to the great pool here.

Credo: Latin for "I believe" Te: Te (Ti), as in "Remember the Te!"

Great explanation, sensei8 I never thought about it like that, but we explain the same thing in a different way. In a normal, relaxed shizentai-dachi fighting stance (or half-facing shiko dachi), one's body is closer to a 45-degree slant rather than squared front. We explain that when a situation closes to in-fighting, because the front arm in the shizentai-dachi is closer to the opponent (i.e. the "longer reach" you're talking about), it is the best appendage to begin any clinch work or bars, holds, locks, grappling, etc... And, it is also best positioned to deflect / redirect any initial range-closing attacks by an assailant. Of course, we also instruct our students that we cannot simply play "hand-slap" with our opponent to block everything ; we must move with the deflection into a position best suited to end the situation, whether it's in-fighting, flanking, deflect and counter and run, etc...

In Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), our chudan uke's are executed a little differently. Our kosa's cross our bodies differently; instead of the uke hand being back under our armpit, both arms essentially make an "X" in front of chest and diaphragm with the blocking hand being on the outside of the "X". The inside hand of the "X", in advanced / black belt / street defense applications, would actually be an open-handed check (barai). This open-handed check is actually what's redirecting an opponent's strike. Thus, the chudan uke is actually a counter strike, executed in a diagonally straight line (used in conjunction with gamaku), to the opponent's striking arm, or to face, or to ribs, or wherever. These are basics of Iri Kumi (in-fighting) from the Te (Ti)... Te (Ti) that is missing from Karate / MA... Like I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, competent instructors with knowledge of what makes fighting sense is essential for students to understand real, life and death applications. Also, as for why we chamber, again, read previous posts to get an idea of what a chamber is used for.

In another thread, I talk about discovering something I felt was missing from my Karate / MA training. (For anyone interested, that thread is here: http://www.karateforums.com/my-new-white-belt-in-my-own-dojo-vt45380.html) The intention of this discussion isn't meant to be another "what would you change in your MA journey"... Rather, in your current MA training / study, is there anything you think or feel you're missing, whether it's conceptual, methodological, or stylistic? Is it something your school, instructors, or organization is missing? Do you have enough authority within your school or organization to fill anything that's missing? I'm interested in everyone's responses...

Yup! (Think of a wooden bird table!) Take the post you made (4ft long post this time) attach it to a board (plywood) about 2 inches thick. Base board; say 2ft wide 5-6ft long. Screw one end of the post to said board 1 ft x 1 ft form one end. Now attach 3 4x4 post to the main post about two ft up and angle them at 45 degrees and attach these to he main board! (think upside down 'y') SAH-WEEEET! I am taking notes... I am going to build this. I will keep you posted when I get started and how it turns out...

I don't really have a dog in this hunt either way, so the only thing I can toss my 2 cents at is this: SPOT ON While I can't say whether our workouts are as hard as Kyokushin (most likely not, that's not what we're training for), we do train hard. We do a solid warm up, followed with hard strength training and Core development. Then, the rest of our hard workout is incorporated within the Karate training we do. We do this for many of the same reasons you guys have mentioned: to push our students to the mental edge, to force them to confront themselves, to make them better, and, quite frankly, for many of them, our classes are the only time they get exercise. We only have a couple of "overweight" students, so the rest of them are of the kind that simply don't exercise at home. Moreover, to drive the point home to our students, we never make the students do an exercise we instructors cannot perform; and, more so, we must be able to perform the exercise better than they. Many new students come into our dojo and look at me, and think "what's he doing instructing?", because I'm stocky with a boulder-belly (slight belly from a past surgery, but is rock hard, no flab). But once I show them I can do everything they do with better precision, longer endurance, etc, they don't question me anymore about that. I'm not trying to toot my horn, just to emphasize the importance of exercise and that instructors must be able to do it. IMHO, the only exception is for those much more seasoned, elderly instructors / masters that simply cannot do it because of age. In these cases, their knowledge / wisdom more than makes up for inability to perform hard exercise. We also instruct our students to practice these things at home because they can't expect to get better by only doing them when they come to class a few hours a week. Yes, many not-so-competent instructors use exercise as filler for their lack of knowledge and ability. That's why we ensure hard workouts are infused into the technical instruction...

Hmmm.... a potentially deep question... But, on it's surface, simple math says two is greater than one, so two arms would be longer than one. But, then again, who's arms are we comparing? Two from the same person, or two different? Methinks you're a "tricksee hobitses" sometimes I look forward to the rest of the picture...

TY sensei8 for the "SP!" Haha! How true! And, how easy it is sometimes to overlook this quintessential fact...

True... I see your point. A practitioner must evolve him/herself in order to accept the teachings of a competent instructor... (Thanks for the SP! kudos...)

A few, actually.... Who will be the next, Shoshin Nagamine? Ankichi Arakaki? Gichin Funakoshi? Choki Motobu? Chotoku Kyan? Choshin Chibana? Anko Itosu? Kosaku Matsumora? Sokon Matsumura? Kanga "Tode" Sakugawa? Takahara Peichin? Kwang Shang Fu (Kusanku)?

Ooooh-eeee! Deep and meaty! As MAs, IMHO, I think we're all looking for a "true" / "one" sense of self. Our relentless search for the "one" set / style / path of knowledge is a reflection of our inner, personal beliefs. There are many, many effective bunkai/oyo/MAs out there, so one would think, in our MA journeys, we would strive to learn all these effective methods. But we don't. As effective as any given bunkai/oyo/MA is, we follow what is suitable to each of us. What is suitable to one may not be suitable to me or you because our inner, personal beliefs are different. Compounding that is no person's body is exactly the same as another's; so, an effective bunkai/oyo/MA works for one person, but not another. This is the core of why the "style vs style" argument is futile, but that's a different discussion. Thus, we search for the "one" set / style / path of knowledge that is most effective for us. Many of us find a "one" person (instructor / mentor / organization) that reflects exactly what we're searching for. This "one" person is different for everyone because, again, our inner, personal beliefs are different (and our bodies). I mentioned in another thread (that I started) that I had reunited with an old instructor that is a Te (Ti) expert. Not to disparage my current chief instructor, but this Te (Ti) expert, whom has taken me as a personal student, represents the "one" path that I've been searching for my whole MA journey... so, this "one" experience has really just begun for me... I look with awe upon those who've been on their "one" path for a while.

Any intense training like MA begins and thrives on one's own mindset. Any physical abilities / techniques are derived from training with the right mindset. Character / values will determine how one uses given MA training in a situation. IMHO, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that one's MA mindset is something they're born with, but in turn is cultivated by training. Thus, one's MA mindset is borne from training and fused back into what they already had....and it continues to grow and sustain itself in this cyclical fashion. For instance, when I started with my current instructor 15 years ago, I had neglected much of my physical development (exercise) and thus was overweight. I thought that I wouldn't be able to continue my MA journey. However, I pulled on my inner drive to get back in shape and continue... By the time I had earned Nidan under my current instructor, I had lost near 100lbs and was in excellent shape. I felt like I could do anything. Then, a few years ago, my appendix ruptured and I had emergency surgery. I almost died. The surgeon had to cut through my abdomen wall and make a big enough opening to pull out all my innards and clean them off and disinfect them; then had to put them back. Because of this, I am still dealing with the effects of this today. My belly / lower abdomen looks like a gut and is lopsided on my right side where my incision scar is. What happened is both scar tissue built up and my ab muscles atrophied causing my belly / lower ab to swell and become lopsided, and thus I gained weight again. I thought my MA days were done. But, after many tests, MRIs, etc, my doctor cleared me for "hardcore" training, as long as I wear a weight belt. Instead of back support, he said they're also good for supporting abdomen muscles. So, my mindset changed positive again, and I started training like I did before. I'm back down 40lbs and my belly is like a boulder. I have a gut, but it's not squishy at all. Dealing with a weight belt and a boulder-belly has been awkward, but I regularly exercise and do the hard workouts needed for my Karate development. It's all about mindset. The more I train, my mindset gets better and better. IMHO, it would be similar / same for any MA...

A few things here. 1. There are arts out there that wouldn't be deemed "traditional," but are instead rooted in the type of techniques and training tactics used by LEOs and armed forces. There needn't be any kind of traditional background to begin with. 2. I don't think I need to totally come to a complete understanding of my TKD training or my Hapkido training to realize if it is going to suit my needs in combat. Lets take same very basic points of emphasis from my TKD class. a) no shoes allowed in class b) bowing c) 90% of the class is done in a solo manner, i.e., basics with no partner, forms with no partner. Then we get into the problem with sparring and one-steps: one attack, and then a pre-planned defense for one-steps, and sparring is rules based, semi-contact, no kicks below the belt, no hand techniques to the head. So, in my years of TKD training, I can see holes that aren't helping me become a better fighter when it comes to self-defense. Which will benefit me more at this point in my training, continuing to refine my stepping punch in a front stance, or working some jabs and crosses with a moving partner holding pads, who also throws out a punch I have to defend? Or, a pre-planned one-step defense against a stepping punch thrown from a "bad guy" standing in a front stance and down block, rather than a scenario based "one-step" in which the "bad guy" is talking crap, getting animated, and then attacks or is deterred by some verbal judo? So, as you can see, it isn't too difficult to find issues in traditional styles. These are just examples from my TKD training, and will not be conducive to all traditional styles. All I'm saying is that if you analyze what you are doing, you can take a good honest look and see what and where a shift in training will be beneficial to students. Solid post!! The practitioner MUST evolve because without the practitioner evolving, the art's stagnate. We do the art, but the art doesn't do us because the art is nothing more than a vehicle, and in that, we're the transmission of said art!! A few things here... bushido_man96, you're right in that any defense training doesn't need to be traditional in its background. I would just like to point out that many of the great Karate / traditional MAs of the past (in 1800's through early modern era) were LEOs (Osensei Nagamine being one of them). They used their traditional Karate / MA techniques and applied them in practical, situational ways. To address it in a different way, learning self-defense / defense techniques is akin to learning how to use different tools, yes? We often say that the hand-to-hand techniques in MA are just tools, just like any other weapon. Well, knives and clubs are considered some of the oldest / traditional tools / weapons of humankind, and we still use them to this day. LEOs have tactical batons; what are tactical batons other than modern clubs? Aside from differences in the physical manufacture, what has really changed in their applied use? How about knives / tactical knives? Same with the human body and learning to use it as a weapon / tool. A fist is a fist, elbow an elbow, knee a knee, and so on. Whether the development of these tools is based upon "traditional" arts (like sensei8 said: simply vehicles to communicate said tool development) or modern tactics, what matters is how these tools are applied.... I think you were hitting on this somewhat in the last paragraph of your post (which was good and meaty ). ...which segues into addressing your other points (about your TKD / traditional MA experience), as well as the MA evolution discussion in general. As sensei8 mentioned, the practitioner is the one who evolves and that the MA art is the transmission / communication of said art / evolution. However, I would extrapolate this beyond a bit...(uh-oh here I go again lol...) IMHO, in order for a practitioner / MA art to have growth, adaptation, evolution, etc, a practitioner / MA art must have competent teachers / instructors to impart the MA art. A competent MA instructor will know the practical use of any technique taught to students. This means bunkai/oyo must be taught / learned; and, not just any bunkai/oyo, but those that have real, practical street applications. This also means kihon, one/multi-step, kumite, etc must have real, practical street applications. Essentially, real, practical street applications = modern situational applications. On one hand, this doesn't automatically mean that traditional bunkai/oyo don't have real, practical street applications. Back to what I said above, a fist is a fist, an elbow an elbow; they can only move / function in so many ways. If, after maneuvering / positioning / defending correctly, I use a gyaku zuki on an assailant in front of me, and at the same time, use my chambering arm as a hiji ate (elbow smash / strike) to his buddy on my flank, that traditional use is still applicable. On the other hand, it's the situational application that must change. As in, some techniques may be considered obsolete (IMHO) because their situational / historic use no longer has any bearing in modern society. For instance, let's look at the flying side kick. We've heard of the legend about it being "originally used" to dismount horse riders; I'm not sure I buy into it (my physics / engineering mind tells me not to), but for sake of discussion, let's say it's true. In this case, what modern street application is there for a traditional tool that was supposedly used to dismount horse riders? Not much. We don't use traditional pole arms anymore, either (imagine LEOs showing up to a SWAT situation with pikes or halberds...weird...). Still, that's not to say that a technique with an obsolete bunkai/oyo shouldn't be learned or has no use. One, learning something like a flying side kick (the argument for / against its practical use aside) can help a practitioner develop better balance, targeting, body center control, etc. Two, they're fun. Never discount that. Just remember what the move is for, what it's application is. If a competent instructor tells his / her students that "we only learn this move for training purposes" or "for fun", then students know up front it may or may not have a modern use. Three, learning obsolete techniques/bunkai/oyo for preservation of the art is OK, too. As long as the students know up front that a given technique is only for the art, and doesn't have a known modern use, then they should be OK with it. Learning stuff to preserve an art is what is useless to LEOs / military because they're not training to paint portraits or stills on canvas. So, it's all dependent upon a competent instructor teaching practitioners / students techniques supported by proper bunkai/oyo, in turn supported by proper situational training (kumite, partner drills, bag work, etc...), which in turn gives a practitioner what's necessary to grow, adapt, evolve... *takes a breath*

Very cool videos...great find, great share For effectiveness, why don't we ask the brains of any fellow who's been brained by one of those things? Holy moley...

Even in this formula, imho, it isn't just that easy. Why? The consumer, and our students are our consumers, make the decision as to whether they're going to accept the fees or not. Finding the neutral ground will take some trial and error hits until the fees stimulate the consumer to bite. If a normal monthly tuition costs the practitioner $150 per month, then is $100 per hour too much? $50 per hour? Too much/little? Then again, we go right back to what CredoTe's quote from above...what does the student want. Then, how big should the private class be? 1 on 1? 1 on 2 or 3 or 4 or 5? There are, imho, so many parameters to be concerned with because private lessons should be easy to assemble, and, imho, they are. But two factors kill a dojo quick. One: Inexperience in conducting an effective private lesson. Two: Greed. Don't know how to teach a private lesson. Then don't until you do. Imho, teaching private lessons is a whole new ball game then teaching a group; different stimulus...different animal. If you charge too much, then you'll never teach one private lesson until you find the magic number that'll work in the area that your school is located. Even then, once a price satisfies all concerned, the bad word will keep rearing up it's nagging head...CHANGE!! Lowering and raising private lesson fees is an extremely sensitive matter for all. Consumers want to know why, and you've got to have an answer that won't floor the consumer right out the door. Change is inevitable in business; don't what to change, then you're school will be closed faster than it took me to type this post, imho. Being a name, does it make it very easy to set the prices? It might. I don't know!! The overall and general consensus of any commodity price setting is simple...the lower price is what hooks the consumer first and after all. Quality might matter, but attack their wallet, you'll see what happens. Once all of the kinks have been worked out...have fun...EVERYONE!! Thank you for the support / kudos Your post is very insightful; there are several good points you make that I will now keep in mind when dealing with private lessons. There's one particular point of special interest: That is 1000% true... In fact, I just started doing private lessons barely two years ago because of this. My instructor always warned that private lessons are a different animal than dojo training... I tried it once many years ago, and it didn't work out. So I waited until I knew how to handle private lessons. Even then, "knowing" how to handle them is totally different than "experiencing" them. My first few private lessons were awkward, quirky; but, once I gained some confidence in what I was / am doing, now they're no sweat (Well, they are, because we work out hard...lol )

Thanks for the info. Apparently, it's been going on long enough in your area of MA that you've been able to categorize the issue. I had no idea that the same issue we're experiencing has ingratiated itself into your MA world, as well. My ignorance may come from the fact that, around my living area, the only JJ I've seen is MMA-style BJJ and is only offered / taught in MMA gyms or "scrap houses". My experience with BJJ/MMA in my area would be akin to your category 3: "Pretenders" that you described. Some of them may have been category 2, but I couldn't decipher. None of the places even remotely resemble a dojo, and none of the practitioners wear anything close to a gi, so I don't think any of them are Traditionalists according to your description. Basically, they seem like a place for a bunch of neanderthal meat-heads to learn how to beat people up more efficiently (IMHO, so they can sit around at their local "watering hole" and be "the coolest, toughest dude"...). One of the reasons I joined KF was find JJ/BJJ/MMA folks out there that aren't meat-heads and can share their art, experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc without trying to "prove" they're better than everyone. So, again, thanks for sharing. I'm definitely going to look into this and ask around. Maybe our common problem can be addressed by the "real JJ/BJJ dojos" and "real Karate / MA dojos" together sharing notes? How could the "real JJ/BJJ/Karate" dojos get together to improve things, if possible?

Way to go Good luck!

Welcome to KF! I hope your family has a great Karate journey together...

Welcome to KF! May you have a great MA journey...

Yes! We tell our students, "You get out of it only what you put into it!" But, we also assure them that WE, as instructors, will meet them half way... We will give them the best instruction we can possibly give so that, when they meet us in the middle, they get everything out of their training they put into it. It's impossible to teach drive / determination...

I know the feeling. Even at my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy I often want to put that we train "Real" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And it's a relatively new art form. It's just that, with all the tourneys and "no-gi" grappling stuff out there, too many are losing the point of BJJ's inception. Which was self defense. So here's an art, developed in 1925, that already has a great deal of watering in less than 100 years. Whaaa..?!? Ya'll in BJJ/MMA are experiencing the same thing?!? Stick a post-it on my forehead and call me "stupid"...lol I didn't think you guys had to deal with this; that this is one of the main reasons MMA came about... As I mentioned in my thread starter about MMA seeming to figure it out for themselves, what did you do, or continue to do, to figure this out? Style aside, what are you guys on the lookout for in terms of "watered down" JJJ/BJJ/MMA and "McMMAs"? For instance, what does your specific BJJ/MMA gym do (or don't do) to "keep it real"?

And from: Ruben, what DWx and Wastelander advise are spot on. Not much else to add... Good posts, DWx and Wastelander

We have rubber mats (simulated wood grain) for our training deck and we are anything but a McDojo... We incorporate a lot of grappling, takedowns, locks, etc so our matted floors serve good purpose. We are Karate / traditional MA, but our dojo "looks" modern: it's a modern looking business suite in a strip plaza. Not our ideal choice, but it's what we can afford, for now. What alarms me to a red flag of McDojos is the part about signing a contract. It doesn't guarantee that your new school is a McDojo, but MA schools that make you sign a contract to join usually are McDojos. The kid class having a separate belt system also doesn't guarantee McDojo status, but can be a warning sign depending on how they use it. In our dojo, for kids 4-8 yo, we have a certified non-style specific curriculum that is useful for introducing MA to youngsters. We are fully aware that many McDojos use this same curriculum, but the difference is how we incorporate it into our main Karate system. Essentially, our kiddie curriculum stretches 10 kyu white belt out into "mini-kyus" to slowly prepare them for our main system. "Graduates" of our kiddie curriculum get awarded with a genuine 9th kyu rank in our main system (rather than an equivalent kyu rank or jr black belt). Many McDojos use this kind of setup to stretch kyu rank time for $$$ grabs, to fast track jr black belts, etc. As many here have suggested, attend class for a month or two and be sure to pay close attention to the amount of useful teaching / training you receive versus the cost of classes. If you're paying medium to high costs and not getting much in return, it may be time to look elsewhere. Likewise, if you're paying high costs but the training is out-of-this-world, then it's probably worth it. And, if you're paying low to medium cost, and the teaching / training is mediocre to out-of-this-world, then you're getting an even to great deal.

No way! We have a man who's 50 years old and a 4th kyu. He's one of our hardest working students. It's all about what you're willing to put into your training in return for what you will get out of it. Keep in mind what you're trying to get out of your training so your efforts put into it are worth it. For instance, are you interested in MA for health / exercise? Are you in it for sport? Are you in it for self-defense? Are you in it to make it a life-long journey? These are rhetorical questions that only you can answer for yourself.