CredoTe

I think some dan ranks could be a bit prideful, and not want to have others see a kyu rank scoring points on them, or good hits, etc. I expect to get tagged here and there in sparring, by no matter who I am sparring. Its all learning. Yes...I agree. Except, I would only modify your statement a wee bit... I would say that there certainly are dan ranks that are prideful and can't stand the idea of a kyu scoring a hit on them. As instructors, we expect to be hit and we are, quite often! Both, because we must fight at our students' levels (what do they learn if we "black belt up" on them and trounce them?), we throw stuff expecting to be blocked and hit, and because we're not perfect or Superman..! When a student gets a good hit on me, I tell them, "great job, you did well there". If not, and I continue to block them and get hits in on them, I tell them, "you need to work on this here or that there...there you go! Now you have it!" As instructors, we always go home with more bumps and bruises than our students...

It makes things difficult doesn't it? The chief instructor at my school has tried to get him not to be like that but is failing miserably. So we have had to revert to use the running of the gauntlet style format of kumite with him. Fight all the adult senior ranked students in a row, and my CI brings in a few guys who compete at nationals and are ranked highly to fight him. We all do the gauntlet at least once a month and for our troublemaker more Totally... it does make things difficult... I think we're going to have to try something different to get our alpha-male 1st kyu to calm down a bit and get a modicum of respect for his partners. We might have to do something similar to what your CI does with your brash kyu-er.

Whoa! That's awesome..!

And from: GREAT POSTS! Not much to add here... And from: Sounds like you're getting some pretty good advice / instruction, so far, and that your MA journey is off to a good start. And, yes, any dojo that's halfway decent is very much a family...

Well, for us, not surprisingly it's: Jukkyu (10th Kyu) Kukyu (9th Kyu) Hakkyu / Hachikyu (8th Kyu) Shichikyu / Nanakyu (7th Kyu) Rokukyu / Rokkyu (6th Kyu) Gokyu (5th Kyu) Yonkyu (4th Kyu) Sankyu (3rd Kyu) Nikyu (2nd Kyu) Ikkyu (1st Kyu) The colors don't really matter...

Spot on! We constantly pound into our students' heads that they will only get out of their MA training what they put in!

NO!! Black belts of that type will struggle deeply against a kyu ranked student of the lowest level. Hehehehe...of course, you already know we both agree on that...

Solid post!! Domo arigato, sensei8

Scientific study of MAs are a great way to prove effectiveness. Particularly, the physics behind the movements, techniques, etc. As an engineer, I find special interest in studying the physics behind any MA training. And, note that the physical properties of your MA and my MA, both sequential kata based and non-sequential kata based, have both proven true. IMHO, terming them "martial arts" is outdated. I think a more modern term would be "martial sciences". I think they're "art forms" simply because of the methods of preservation (at least in kata-based MAs). Exactly! I'm with you on that!

Great point...couldn't agree more

I appreciate your replies tallgeese and bushido_man96 Don't get me wrong; I don't believe in training in kata for beauty's sake, i.e. to look cool at tournaments. I think this discussion plus others on other threads that we've had show that the three of us share something in common: we believe in training for practical, effective, real-world situations. Our approach / methods of doing so are just different A few points I should clarify: And from: When I said "don't want to understand it" maybe I should have said "don't want to understand it further" or "don't want to work with it anymore". I did say that to those of you who train using methods without kata and can effectively defend yourself, then great. I think it's great you choose to do so... as I totally understand that the "kata" method of training does not work for everyone. I wasn't trying to make a point about it being the "be all end all" way, only that it DOES work if taught, studied, and trained correctly. I don't think anyone is bagging on those that do train kata for "real" purposes. What is coming into question is whether or not there is a better way to do it, and if there is, why not adapt? Correct study of kata is precisely about adaptation. As many of us "kata" guys train longer and harder through our kata, gain more experience, etc, more and more bunkai/oyo are revealed. These revelations are in the mind of the practitioner. Anytime we have an epiphany of a new bunkai/oyo, we put it to the test of whether it's practical & effective or not. If not, then it's discarded. As we continue our revelation of bunkai/oyo, our fighting style and training methods adapt to meet it (we must alter our training method to include these "new" bunkai/oyo). Too often when I'm confronted with this argument, "why not adapt" equals "why can't you see that my way is better". I'm not saying de facto that's what you're doing, only that that's my experience. I usually counter with, if my method allows me to adapt and be effective in my own self-defense, why do I need to change my method? As I mentioned before, I have no bone with those that don't train in the same methods that we kata guys do. Again, if it works for you, great. This really isn't kata in the sense that we are speaking of it here. Not all drill work is kata. In the argument that you are making, then your own kihon training is essentially kata training, but I think we know that isn't really the case. There is a difference between learning and drilling technique, and training kata. If we go with your argument here, then Karate doesn't have 3 K's, but only 2; kata and kumite. I think the real question is, and tallgeese alluded to it, is this: Is it really necessary to learn forms before learning self-defense applications? In my opinion, it isn't. Another way to describe form or kata is "structure". The structure of any technique we train with must be practiced over and over for many reasons, including muscle memory, posture / control of center / balance, power, proper application, and so on. Boxers do it, wrestlers do it, MMAs do it, MAs do it. Even in kihon training we are working to improve the form or structure of our techniques. IMHO, the only practical difference between kihon and kata is that one is sequential form / structure training and the other is non-sequential form / structure training. Quite often the two are merged a bit in our training; we merge them in various combos with kumite, as well. For instance, kata is merged with kumite in the form of partner kata like the Yakusoku Kumite kata. Kumite is merged with kihon in any sort of partner drills or partner free-form drills. If it's not necessary to learn form / structure of any technique, and then proper application of said technique, no matter one's training methods, why learn the technique at all? IMHO, the three of us (tallgeese, bushido_man96, myself) share a common mindset when it comes to self-defense training. I know there are many more here on KF that do, as well, I just haven't had the pleasure of having a discussion with them all, yet. This has been a great discussion. Journey on guys!

The key is being respectful when you go about it. Asking a question just between you and the instructor can be a better option than blurting something out in the middle of class. Every scenario is different, so make sure to approach each one accordingly.Totally agree Respect is the key issue, and respecting all means upper level karateka being open to listen to opinions / insights from any other karateka regardless of rank. I know several already responded to this image a while ago, but... This graph is EPIC...

All I can think of is if that student (the Kyu Ranked student) is arrogant or dangerous when they spar and that they have no control over their technique or just have no respect for their partners when engaging in kumite We have a particular advanced kyu (1st kyu) who's exactly that: arrogant, brash, alpha-male type, no respect for partners. It's not that I don't want to spar him, but, every time I do, because he's out to prove he's better than everyone, I must "teach him a lesson" every time. I don't like doing that, and it teaches him nothing in regards to skill. It's becoming tiresome. If it were totally up to me (I'm not the CI), he would sit on 1st kyu / brown belt row until he learns better.

In some Shorin-Ryu based Karate's, Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan are switched in order. To clarify, our Pinan Shodan ends with symmetrical gedan uke in zenkutsu-dachi followed by jodan uke in shizentai-dachi (low-high-low-high). Our Nidan ends with four gedan shuto uke's in nekoashi-dachi.... But in any case, as much bunkai/oyo as we do, I still love it when one of my instructors blows my mind with something new and effective.

I agree with you in that part of any kata training must include the historical context of why / how kata came about, especially in the Far East. In the West, "kata" as we think of it largely didn't show up as a sequential memory tool, but as military training drills. Look how warfare developed from Ancient Greece, through the Roman Imperial Army, the Vikings, to Medieval & Renaissance battlefield tactics. As a subset that might be compared to Karate, think of those techniques, tactics, and skills derived from the battlefield during those eras that were practiced and applied by citizens, gentry, etc for self-defense purposes or duels. In the West, the "height" of self-defense / dueling in those eras was rapier-and-main-gauche fighting (soon replaced by pistols). At its base, the techniques, tactics, and skills all have forms duelers practiced. In a brutal equivalency, Roman gladiators (what were they if not extreme duelers?) even trained with forms and warfare derived from the Imperial Army... But, in either of these examples, they didn't really train in their forms the same way the Far East developed theirs. I wonder, if History had gone a little differently in the West, would Western MAs have sequential memory kata like the Far East?

These things can be adjusted at any given time instantly as needed. The things that kata trains us are vital outside of the safety of any dojo because kata gave me transitional understanding outside of the prescribed movements of any said kata. These prescribed movements are the key to the door, and once the door is opened in understanding and discovering the unforeseen Bunkai/Oyo, adjustments that you speak up become effortless. True, however, kata is a training tool, and it's about time students understand that. One has to train outside of the kata, but then, one will also have to return to that kata training to chip away and clean the air of any uncertain elements that still might exist. Kata is modern and effective as a training tool. I don't do kata for trophies, no, I train in kata because it opens up many other possibilities. People speak ill about kata because they don't understand it as it is meant to be understood. Again, no kata equals no karate!! SPOT ON... Great post! Many folks who don't subscribe to kata don't like it either because they don't understand it well enough, yet (their training, skill level, or instructors haven't revealed meaning, yet) or they simply don't want to understand it. For those that don't want to understand it, if you're MA of choice trains you to defend yourself well, then great; but, don't bag those of us that do train kata for real purposes. For those of us that do subscribe to kata and understand its purpose, kata does work to train for real world situations. As I've discussed before, it depends on the instructors teaching the kata for the right purposes, practitioners studying kata in the right mindset, and then combining kata with kihon and kumite. Kihon must include bag, mat, target work, and kumite must include situations beyond 1-on-1 tournament training. If you don't like kata and the MA you train in "doesn't contain kata", how are you shown proper / effective technique? When you practice against a partner or a bag or whatever, are you not practicing the form of said technique? When you're shown a technique for the first time, doesn't your instructor show you that you must "do this first, then this second, and that third" or the like? Then, you practice said new technique on a bag or target or partner to work on the form of it so you can learn how to make it effective for you, yes? How is that NOT kata? Even boxers work on form against bags, heavy bags, or speed bags. For those that don't understand it well enough, yet, keep at it! If you have a competent instructor and / or the right practitioner mindset, you will see the value of kata.

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years? Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago? SPOT ON... Great post!

"Similar"? What was I thinking? Of course, I meant "singular"

Great find, great share JZ! Very true!

There's only a few of us black belts in our dojo and all of us train 100% in all our classes. We do every exercise that we make our students do, and we must do them well! We never instruct our students to perform an exercise we cannot do ourselves. Every warmup, every strength exercise, every kata, kihon, kumite, etc, we black belts do everything along side our students.

Yes, we start sparring with beginners. They only spar instructors, and we fight at their skill level with light to moderate contact. At beginner level, we basically want to see if they can move their feet and hands, and if they can stand to be in a little heat.

And from: Great posts!

Ah... dojo politics. I haven't had nearly the experience with dojo politics as you and many others here have, but I can't stand them, either. IMHO, not sure how much it counts since I'm nowhere near a Hachidan or Kudan, the fact that you consider yourself a Hachidan in your heart because that's the latest rank you were promoted to by your Dai-Soke shows incredible respect for your master, his spirit, his legacy, the art that he wanted passed on. You mentioned that you don the "Kudan" for official, organizational occasions and for nothing else. IMHO, that shows you're trying to meet them halfway while trying to remain true to your Dai-Soke's memory. It's a fine line to walk, but I think it should suffice, at least in the spirit of the situation (I am totally ignorant of said By-Laws). On the other hand, maybe the hierarchy sees you are worthy of said Kudan? Maybe they believe the spirit of your Dai-Soke, as well, and believe that he would have ranked you to Kudan? I don't know... I'm just a guy from afar, you know the workings of your organization intimately; but I like to think, that even in the face of politics, people try to see the goodness and worthiness in people. Maybe they're seeing these in you?

Once a rank is earned in a certain style, it should be acknowledged. Yes, when someone lacks in their training for any period of time, they shouldn't receive promotion just because time-in dictates. For example, if before-mentioned hypothetical shodan lambs it for 5 or 10 or whatever years, then, when they restart training in the same art (if starting back in a different art, it's white belt for them), they do not get promoted to nidan until their skill level and time-in prerequisites are met. In a nomenclature kind of sense, it can be both. I have a black belt because I am a black belt....OR...I'm a black belt because I have a black belt. Either you are or you are not!! Walking on the floor with your black belt tells all that you're a black belt at first impressions, but, the truth is quickly discovered that while you're wearing a black belt, your level of experience doesn't match to the advertisement wrapped around your waist. However, it can also be discovered that you're wearing a black belt and your experience does match to the advertisement around your waist; in that, you are a black belt through and through. Heart can't be denied; experience truly comes from the heart. Did you pay $5 for a black belt at the local MA supply store, or did you pay for your black belt through many years of shedding your blood, sweat, and tears!! True black belts can't be denied, however, false black belts are denied. Great post! Your wisdom in your last sentence is very solid. Except, McDojos promote "false black belts" all the time... But, then again, that goes to the heart of DWx's question: are they really "black belts"?

No technique is similar, which is why the concept of gamaku is so important...