CredoTe

Welcome to KF! Thanks for making us a part of your journey...

Great read... It's evident that you put a lot of thought and effort into it; great job

First off, welcome to KF! Glad you're making us part of your journey. As everyone mentioned, yes, it is normal to feel "like an Octopus trying to dance at a disco" (great analogy, BTW ) or like a fish trying to walk the beach. Practice your moves slowly, at first, to gain coordination, control, technique, targeting, etc. Speed and power will come in good time.

Your questions are pretty astute. The fact you say "Fukyugata" and "Shorin-ryu" leads me to believe that you are a fellow Matsubayashi-Ryu karateka. In Shorin-Ryu, movements are natural and in a natural range of motion. Relative to many other MAs, they probably seem "small" because we don't have big, sweeping movements or stances. To address your specific example, I first must explain the concepts of kosa and shime. A kosa ("cross", sometimes referred to as an "X") is performed with both hands and is done when executing any sort of block, deflection, evasion, etc. Essentially, you kosa whenever you move to perform said block, deflection, evasion, etc. In Shorin-Ryu, specifically the way we do it in Matsubayashi-Ryu, a kosa action for a gedan uke/barai (low block) is that the "blocking" hand comes to the opposite shoulder across the chest (not the ear as you noted for shotokan), and the other hand covers the body in a downward diagonal straight line (it almost looks like one is trying to cover their groin - which they kind of are). In your example, with a left-hand low block, your left hand would kosa your chest to your right shoulder (your elbow will be bent), and your right hand would kosa to your left hip / thigh area (thus covering your groin and more) in a diagonal straight line. Then, the block is executed. This "crossing" (kosa) to cover your center / kill zone is part of the concept of shime ("to close"). We have an epithet to explain this to our beginner students: "kosa to shime", or "cross to close" (I know, it's redundant "cross to to close? What?" , like saying "ATM machine" or "PIN number"). Meaning, we cross our bodies to close our kill zone. You leave an opening for your opponent when starting your block (the "kosa" portion of the block) up by your ear, which is why we start it lower. This is done in kata, kihon, kumite, etc. A good way to describe the stances in Shorin-Ryu is that our stances are deep, not long or wide. The only "high" stance we really have is shizentai dachi (natural / walking stance; there are other "high" stances seen in advanced kata, but those stances are for inferred techniques like kicks or are transitional, not something you would actually stand or fight with). When executing any technique in shizentai dachi, the length of your stance should be the same as your natural walking pace. In general, for most people, the length of their walking pace is such that there is 1 foot length between the heel of their front foot and the toes of their back foot. Not 1 foot as in 12 inches, but the length of one of their own feet. As for the 2nd question, the rising itself is not a factor in power generation. The concept of power generation, from the Ti root of Okinawan Tode, is known as gamaku. In gamaku, power is drawn from the earth through the legs, accelerated and directed with the hips ("koshi"), and delivered to the opponent with the striking appendage. If it's a hand or arm technique (i.e. punch, strike, elbow, etc), the acceleration and direction from the hips is transferred through the shoulders to and through the striking tool (hand, elbow, etc), and delivered into (and through) the opponent. It's more than just hips ("koshi koshi koshi!" you may often hear). Gamaku is entire body dynamics. If applied correctly, rising from a low to high stance isn't the factor; it's the drawing of power through the legs (similar to the idea of pushing and pulling the ground with the legs, but not quite that simple) that is the factor. For beginners, it's easier to begin grasping this concept using a "rising" motion because the legs are naturally pushing and pulling against the earth to step into the next move (in the case you cited, a punch). This is actually related to your follow-up question in your item 2. Again, gamaku... In demonstrations (i.e. tournaments), especially for students that haven't mastered power generation, the step-light-heel-stomp makes it seem like they're generating power, when in fact they're not (they're generating noise - more or less bells and whistles for tournaments). When stepping in shizentai dachi, you should be doing as you would if you were naturally walking down the street - no stomping action. The only caveat here is that, if your instructor wants you to do this, then do it how s/he shows you. Your instructor may have an ulterior reason for the stomp (i.e. trying to teach a concept that will be explained to you later on, etc).

I thought "Skynet" already existed... (Hello NSA....) I thought we already had "terminators"... er... I mean, drones...

Bunkai go hand-in-hand with kata progression, so we show bunkai from the start. With children, we start them with very basic applications. Whether we show them these applications along with teaching the movements of a kata, or after they've gotten the movements down, first, depends on their learning process. Some like it better with getting all the moves, first, before showing basic applications, some like it better with learning the applications along with the movements. With older youth and adults, we show them basic bunkai in a similar manner to children, albeit tailored for adults, while they're learning the moves (or after, depending on learning process), but then get into more advanced bunkai/oyo once they understand the movements well. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to know an entire kata before we show them bunkai/oyo, just a given waza or series of moves well enough to show them bunkai/oyo for it.

Welcome to KF! Thank you for making us a part of your journey...

Absolutely... Great post

I agree with the sentiments about visiting the schools; trying them out, get a feel for how the people are, what each school has to offer, etc. But, here is one very important thing that will be paramount in your MA development: Learning good basics from both a physical and conceptual standpoint is crucial.

Absolutely... I can't imagine training or teaching kata without showing the concepts that go with it. Even before we added Ti into the mix, we trained and taught kata with conceptual purpose (just different than what Ti has given us). These concepts must be understood in order for the bunkai/oyo to work and make sense. Otherwise, we'd be doing it just to look cool...

Welcome to KF! Glad you made us a part of your MA journey!

I agree... A lot of MA schools out there are run in the manner of which you speak. We always tried to impart effective concepts and applications to our students, and I think that's what led us in search of what we now know to be Ti; because our teachings weren't jiving with what our original organization's teachings and motivations were (indeed, led to us parting with that organization). Our concepts and applications we taught before fusing with Ti were based upon my CI's and my experiences in street fights (my CI used to be a bouncer and personal body guard for many years). After fusing Ti, it has only made our conceptual and application training that much better. As for JKD, its teaching and training methods (from what I've read in books, online, etc) look very similar to how Ti is trained. IMHO, the advent of the modern combat MA's (JKD, krav maga, etc) and MMA have had a profound affect on the traditional MA world. Meaning, it's forcing traditional MA's into self-evaluation to figure out how to stay relevant and to improve on how they impart their knowledge. I dare say that I don't think we would have found Ti here in the USA had there not been CMAs/MMA to drive karate to straighten itself out - because we would have went on thinking nothing was wrong. I know I sound like a broken record or beating a dead horse with this Ti stuff ("Ti this, Ti that..." lol ), but I truly believe that Ti is the answer that makes karate relevant in today's world. Now, I can't speak for TKD, but I would think there is something similar in the core of TKD's past that is not present in dojangs today that, if it were, would change it forever for the good.

Keep in mind that before Eastern MA were introduced into grade schools, there really were no belt ranks like we see today. Karate, for instance, just trained hard for purposes of self-defense / civilian combat. Before its introduction into Japanese and Okinawan schools, people trained quietly in small groups or pairs, not too unlike Jedi and Padawans - a "master" or "instructor" and an apprentice or number of apprentices. They trained mostly outside in secluded areas away from unsuspecting viewers. So, the idea that MA should train more like wrestling or boxing - they used to be that way in a certain sense, but I would say not quite so organized as wrestling or boxing (because karateka had to keep they're training hidden). Just a thought...

LOL! Q: What does Chuck call his legs? A: Law and Order! Nyuk nyuk nyuk ...lol!

Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development. Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it. It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people. So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics!

YES! "D-P-A" In time, anything is possible. Protective instincts must exist!! Yes, I agree... IMHO, given enough time and circumstance, anyone can be trained to become a "sheepdog". Take a docile lady, for example, that is the victim of an assault. After said hypothetical assault, she makes a stand for herself to not ever be a victim again, and decides to train herself to be able to protect herself - presto! "Sheepdog"... I know this example is over simplistic and somewhat extreme, but there it is...

To clarify, when my CI and I sat down with my Ti instructor, we made arrangements that my CI and I would train with my Ti instructor after class hours by ourselves. So, it was just the three of us (when my CI could make it), and I would wear my black belt to these sessions. Even when my CI wasn't there, I would still wear my black belt because students could watch us training if they stuck around. We didn't tell our students not to stick around because we thought it would be good for them to see us training. Then, when my Ti instructor personally invited me to his private lessons that he holds for his children, that's when I made the decision to wear a white belt. To be clear, I only wear the white belt to these private sessions, no others. These private sessions are outside of normal business hours (not even held on the same days as normal classes), closed to our students, and my CI has known that I go to these (my Ti instructor cleared it with him, first). My CI never really "told me" to train under my Ti instructor; I was invited and I went. I do see where you are coming from, devil dog. As I mentioned previously, I think the short term fix is to wear my black belt. Then, talk things over with my CI so he understands that I never meant any disrespect.

YES!!!! *whew* *regains composure from nerd-out* To address the OP, though, gaining fighting sense from kata and training require both time and a good instructor. You must be able to put the time necessary (differs for different students) towards training/studying both in the dojo and on your own. MA is first, and foremost, a personal journey. Then, you must have good instructor that can guide you along your way. A good instructor will help you glean proper applications (bunkai) from kata and techniques and to use them effectively in a manner that makes fighting sense. For instance, when we show beginners our first kata, we make sure that at least 2 to 3 waza (series of techniques) in the kata makes fighting sense (applications) to them before teaching anything else to them. This gives even our beginner students a few tools to put in their self-defense toolbox. Some can only wrap their heads around 1 waza, some understand more than 3; just depends.

First of all, welcome to the forum! With regard to your question, I'm afraid it's a little to vague to give you a more specific answer than the ones you've already been given. Proper training over time will develop the technique, speed, power, and composure under pressure necessary to defend yourself. Hopefully. I will be honest with you--there is no martial art that can guarantee you will overcome a larger attacker 100% of the time. The best they can do is give you a much better chance than you would have without martial arts training. Agreed. Although I cannot give you an answer from a feminine perspective, I can relate my experience fighting larger people. My sensei was both taller and larger than any of his students and because of this we spent time learning techniques to use against a bigger opponent. So there are a plethora of techniques that allow you to effectively defeat a larger opponent but, like Wastelander has said, there is no guarantee. Just as there is no guarantee that a larger opponent will defeat a smaller one.Great posts, great advice from both... Anything I may add would muddy the water And, yes, welcome to KF lolita24!

Nice videos, nice coconut break... Did you add some vodka or tequila or anything to the coconut after you broke it open..?

I'm glad to see frank advice from all angles here. My head is still spinning from all this, so I'll explain as best I can... To clarify some ambiguities: 1.) my CI's dojo is also my dojo - we own it together, 50/50 partnership. From a business standpoint, we're equal; from an MA standpoint, he's higher rank than me (obviously), so I defer to him in issues where he feels he must pull rank (which is not often). 2.) The only time I wear my white belt is during my private lessons with my Ti instructor; none of our dojo's students are present. In my OP, I mention that I've been searching for the "core/root" of our karate. This journey has included my CI on recurring occasion because we both realized something was amiss. So, he's known for years of my/our interest in seeking out this knowledge. We've had a good go of it, so far, with no previous issues (other than finding the best way to introduce these concepts to our students). When my Ti instructor first showed up a few years ago, it was because he's known me for almost my entire life as a family friend and caught wind of our then new dojo. He came out in support of us (at that time and now, he doesn't have a dojo). After getting to know my CI a bit, the three of us sat down and we told him of our journey to make our karate better. We then talked about him helping us with Ti and getting our art cleaned up and closer to Osensei Nagamine's art and Okinawan Shorin-Ryu in general. So, for a few years on and off, he's been coming to our dojo to help my CI and me with Ti, as well as spending occasional after-hours class time with our students at-large to help us all in Ti. He does this all for free, doesn't charge us a dime. In return, we allow him to use our dojo to teach his children privately, outside of normal business hours. Additionally, any supplies or whatever he needs, we get them for him; it's a valuable trade-off to us. Last summer (2013), he personally invited me to his private lessons that he has for his children. Yes, it's my/my CI's dojo... But, I was personally invited to be his Ti student by being a part of his private lessons he holds for his family. He talked to my CI about it, and my CI didn't seem to have a problem. After 1 private lesson with my Ti instructor (wore my black belt), because of the honor and respect I felt for him and the Ti, I made the decision on my own to wear a white belt. He didn't ask or demand I wear one; I just did it of my own accord. I must admit that I didn't really think about how my CI or prospects would see my white belt because I'm focused on the art (learning), focused on providing an improved MA to our students, and the lessons are private and outside of normal business hours. My thoughts and feelings about wearing a white belt had nothing to do with my time/rank with my CI; my Ti training was totally new and different from anything I've learned before. While not a totally separate style from what I'm ranked in, the concepts and methods are different enough from what I've learned that I truly felt I was a beginner. This is not an attack against my CI or his knowledge and experience, just the truth. Maybe I should have discussed the white belt with my CI, first. Looking back and realizing that I was so focused on the art and whatnot, I didn't think that I would have to worry about my CI being angry with me (again, as focused as I was/am, the thought of my CI being angry and discussing it with him didn't even occur to me). Putting myself in my CI's shoes, on the surface, I can see now why he would be upset. However, I thought he knew me better than that; that my intentions are not to disrespect or undermine him. I definitely do not want to lose the Ti training, nor the relationship I have with either instructor. So, the resolution may be, as some here have suggested, is to just to wear my black belt. That's the simplest solution (my Ti instructor would be ok with it); but, unless I can work this situation through with my CI, I may have to find another location to train with my Ti instructor (as others of suggested). I really don't want to do that, but I guess I made this bed...

This is interesting. I am still learning the finer points of karate, but I'm really enjoying the way it does go with natural movements - my Sensei has said to me "If it feels awkward it is probably wrong.", and it does often feel better when I am given a correction and apply it. Previously I have done highland dance, where the opposite is true - more trying to contort the body, and it generally has to feel awkward to be right, especially early on. This is refreshing, with karate, to be more natural, and I'm sure will lead to fewer strain and muscle injuries. Interesting to read about your style chambering so high. I don't think we do that. Also thank you safroot for the welcome! That's actually pretty good advice from your Sensei. We're constantly telling our students, when learning new techniques or stances or positions, that "it should feel natural." A good way to describe Matsubayashi-Ryu, IMHO, is that our style is deep, not long. Meaning, everything from our stances, to our kata syllabus, to our techniques and applications, etc is deep, not long. For instance, for "horse stance", we do not have kiba dachi; we have shiko dachi, jigotai dachi, or naihanchi dachi. Kiba dachi is too wide/long for us. Yes, our style's chamber position is high and doesn't feel natural; that's why we (our dojo) don't do it It feels more natural to be on the bottom rib... Some styles chamber at the hip or waist, which we don't do, either.

So... There's been an unexpected and unfortunate development... Recently, when training with my Ti instructor (I had my white belt on), my CI stopped by the dojo to drop stuff off. I was up front with him about training under my Ti instructor, so he knows I do this. He came and left without saying anything, but, last week after class, he confronted me and was angry with me for wearing a white belt. He said that I shouldn't be wearing a white belt, that it undermines his instruction and promotion of me to my current rank, and asked if my intention was to receive my instruction and rankings from now on from my Ti instructor. He then made it about business, saying that if someone were to stop by the dojo with inquiries, it wouldn't look good for one of the dojo's instructors to be wearing a white belt. The only thing that I could get out of my mouth before becoming dumbstruck speechless is that I told him that what he told me is not why I wear a white belt... ...Uh....er.....um.... Anyone have any ideas or have dealt with a similar situation that you may advise...?