delta1

Wow, White Warlock! That was a pretty good reply! I agree with you, except I'd modify one part. If you are in a larger city, you are probably correct about the police not necessarily comeing to investigate. But in smaller towns, they almost certainly would. Of course, some of them would likely get all official, start rummaging through the car, leaving fingerprints, making assumptions, ... . Papillon950, you acted on your ego, and in a pretty irresponsible manner. While your brother is not 'officially in charge', you put him in a very difficult situation. Like it or not, society's norms put the responsibility of protecting women on men. You are at an age where you want to exercise your freedom and gain independance, but probably don't have the common sense born of experience to do so safely. We all go through that, so I'm not dumping on you- just pointing out a fact of life. Just develope an awareness that this tendency is prevalant at your age and engage your brain instead of your ego. There are very good reasons that all societiys' put the responsibility of defence primarily on men first. It doesn't make you any less to let him take the lead in this situation. He was a little overbearing, but you were a little reckless. And it sounds like the two of you fed off each others attitudes. I'd guess that you are both 'take charge' type people. That's good, but only if you develope some humility to go with that attitude, and get the experience necessary to actually lead. Otherwise, you will allways be just an ego in conflict with some nother ego.

If your mom took Kenpo, she should be able to help with these concepts: Moving in ballance- since you study a system of Gong Fu, your movement probably emphasizes different principles than Kenpo. But all martial arts stress moving in ballance. Not over comited, not leaning. You should be able to change direction, maneuver, or attack in mid stride/move. If your trailing leg is full, you should be able to pick your front foot off the ground 1" without changing your posture. You should transition smoothly from one posture to the next. Attacking in ballance- mixing up your attacks, utilizing all weapons and attacking all zones, as opposed to throwing the same few attacks all the time (unless they are working all the time!). Mirroring- as you look into the mirror, you see your immage do the same thing you do, but apparently on the opposite side. This is primarily a defensive application as right checks left and left checks right simultaneously. When you realize that you are actually looking at the same side moving, you have a view of primarily offensive application, as right enters his open left, and his right enters your open left. When you are faster than your reflection and can do both at the same time, you protect yourself and hit first, and win (your reflection in this case being your opponent, not the mirror). Ballanced mind- empty, yet full of the task at hand. Taking in everything, while fixed on your opponent. Focused on your intent, while not obsessed on what you want to do to him. These are just concepts, not rules or a how to list. To understand what I and others here are saying to you, you have to think about and meditate on what we are trying to get across. Ask specific questions if necessary to clarify things, and talk to your mom, your instructor and others. But there is no shortcut to the process. You have to engage the grey matter, then go to the mat to work things out physically. Othrwise, you'll end up avoiding mirrors like the drunken warlock!

This is what I was talking about in the posts on visualization! I'm probably overcomplicating things again, but I tend to relate them both to structure. From the post where I tried to explain my view of center line, mother line (I like that term for center- think I'll plagerise it if you don't mind ) and central line to aefibird: When you move him off the central line, the line running from his center line to his mother line is angled off, representing broken structure. And his structure is even more broken if you tip the line in relation to ground or apply torsional force to it. Again, just how I look at things- not necessarily the way any WC system does it. But you do seem to be going that direction here:

Nick, not a problem! Anyone who's been here a while will tell you I wasn't kidding about the 'overcomplication' of simple things. Probably so you all could confuse everyone as well! Several years ago, after I was first introduced to WC, I sort of hung out on a WC forum for a bit. You guys argue more tha AK about sophisticated (a.k.a. complicated) basics! Yep. This is part of AK's zone and demensional control theory. As I said earlier, every ma has to addres this somehow, and some do a betterf job of it than others. Actually, if you get outside and control their elbow, you can neutralize all his natural weapons while tieing up only one of yours. A hard press inward and across will not only check that elbow and arm, it will turn him off center and take his ballance, momentarily making it impossible for him to counterattack. Agreed. Principles remain constant. Differences lie mostly in what the variouse ma's emphasize and how they train.

Ah, you're still a young 'un. The best is yrt to come!

Nick... Why don't you explain your understanding of these concepts and the principles utilized with them? I'm not a WCer, and don't claim extensive knowlege of the variouse systems. I do have some familiarity with some of them, though. So, if you'd care to enlighten us, I and others would probably be interested. On the other hand, if you just want to tell me I overcomplicate things- heck fire, boy, I study American Kenpo-- that's what we do best!

OK. The center line is drawn vertically down the front center of yur body. The mother line runs vertically through the central core of your body. End of story. The diagram I tried to draw sets up further possible discussion, which is what this forum is about. Just knowing they are there tells us nothing. These concepts are used for understanding and functioning effeciently and effectively in a fight. To do that, we need to understand them, not just be able to point to their location. But, you're right. If you can't locate them it's hard to use or understand the principles they work with. Hope that's a little more clear. And, if the Monkey would get off the sauce and post part three, we could all lavish praise on him for sorting this out so well!

Steping forward or back- only recomended if you can't move to the side. Steping forward will actually lock your hips into an anatomically more stable configuration, so is preferable. But, if he's on you already, step back. The double punch is to stop him and keep him off you. Any hurt it puts on him is gravy, but you don't want him hurtin' you! Double punch- as I said, the main purpose is to stop him. Your stance should be a rock solid stance (in AK a forward bow) and your hips should be squared to the opponent (a forward bow isn't a forward bow until the hips are square). The arms should not extend out too far- definately not locked out. You need some shock absorption to deal wit that momentum. The target is his ribs, just under the nipple line. Several reasons for this. First, if you hit him too low, you'll bend him forward and with all that momentum he'll spear you with an ugly headbutt! Hit him too high, you give him leverage to push you over backwards and he still has enough momentum to roll over you. High/low double punch- I don't really care for it as he'll be able to pivot off it and attack again. But if you opt for this one, I'd agree with Shorin Ryuu that you definately want the fist that corresponds to the trailing foot high. The other way, and he'll put a lot of torsional force on you, probably turning you, and he's still moving into you.

Well, as I'm stilll pretty mutch a WC newbie, can you explain in more detail the concept of "motherline" please? I've heard of (and am beginning to 'get') the term centreline, as used in WC, but I've not heard of motherline before. aefi, draw an elipse on a piece of paper (sort of an oval- doesn't have to be perfect). The major diameter is a section that runs through the center at the widest part of the elipse. The minor diameter runs through center at the narrowest part. Now, think of this as a cross section of a persons chest. The point in the center, where the two diameters intersect, would be a top view of the 'mother line'. The point where the minot diameter intersects the front (pick a front...) is a top view of the center line. The central line is the extension of the segment that forms the minor diameter, and ideally runs to your opponents centerline. If you view the person from the front, and a little off to the side, you see the center line as a line bisecting his body. You wouldn't see his mother line, except where it exits his body and goes to ground between his feet. This is the axis around which he wants to pivot. You, of course, want to upset that axis and make him pivot in an unstable manner. You also see that these lines delineate a plane. Think of it as a plate of glass that rests on his centerline as it is transposed on the ground- the central line. OK, now that I've confused you this much, think of that pane of glass running from his motherline to your motherline, through both your centerlines. This is a neutral position, with neither of you having an advantage positionally. But if you can move that glass, or move him in relation to it, so that it still rests on the central line between you and him. But, since you control the central line, and by extension the central plane, it runs in a straight line from your motherline to his centerline, but angles off to his motherline. This is a week position for him, as you have leverage as depicted in the top diagram. You also have positional advantage in that half his weapons are further away while all yours are in battery. "Ask him the time and he tells you how the watch works!" Hope if that isn't too clear, DM or Jerry Love can explain it better.

ramy, you li'l debil, I see you have a new belt. Good show! And good choice, Patrick!

Whatever is on sale!

Well, at least I get the red geography! But, give aefibird another color- what do you have against her, KC? I'm getting a good laugh out of all the 'blues' that are seeking counseling and therapy right now- it's bad enough that it's making the news! Politics!

All martial arts address centerline control. All seek to guard their centerline while opening, offsetting, or controling their opponents. The only difference is in their methodology. Any how, I'm waiting for #3 before I tell DM "Good job!"

Most oriental words have more than one occidentalized spelling. I've seen it spelled both ways before. Couldn't even tell you why I spell it this way. Besides, I can't spell that well in English! WHy would I worry about Japanese!

Get a dart- something with a point on one end and fins on the other. You can throw a knife straight, but I don't think you can keep it from turning over endways. There are throwing knives/bladed weapons that are designed to allways have a point or sharp edge leading, but they still turn over.

Don't get too hung up in this 'do no harm' mindset. Deescalation skills are an important adjunct, but the real focus of martial arts is to be able to defend yourself physically. Sorry, but if you want to talk him down and are not willing to hurt him if that fails, you'll do betterr taking a psych course, or learning negotiating skills. This PC garbage that it is my responsibility to win without hurting a bad guy is pure bull! It is my responsibility to go home in one piece first, to protect others second, to protect property third, and last of all to do no more harm than necessary to the b.g. And if he attacks me, I decide how much harm is necessary. The only say he has in it is if he wishes to surrender and wait quietly for the police, I'll consider whether it is bennificial for me to not break something heavy on his head. If I think he's lieing, or trying to sucker me into a state of complacency, or if I even fear that he might be able to gain the upper hand if I stop- ... . Well, it isn't exactly 'do', but it is the prudent way to make sure it's really over.

Good advice. And, even after you leave, you can be caught back up in the mess. You'll be investigated, possibly implicated, certainly leaned on for information, subpeonad as a witnes. And, let me clue you in to one sad thing about our 'justice' system- it ain't! You can more easily be set up after you leave because you won't have a clue what is happening. I've never been pegged for anything I did- you can prepare for that. But I've been hammered for things I didn't even know had occured. How can you be ready for fabrications that you aren't privvy to? If you are witness to, and are pressured to be a part of, seriouse illigal activities, you need to cover yourself. Get evidence and put it in safe locations. Write down names, dates, times, and what was said or done. Find out what you are dealing with. Are these just dishonest schmucks out for an easy buck, or are they involved with organized crime? And organized crime doesn't have to be big- small local groupes can be just as viscouse as the big boys. If they are schmucks, they'll get caught. Go to the authorities with what you have, or better yet let your lawyer do this. If they are organized crime, you seriously need professional help. It's sad to hear about this kind of thing, but it is a reality of the times, I guess. But the quicker you get out, the better off you'll be, as long as you can prove innocence, or at least cast seriouse doubt about guilt. Wish you the best of luck.

Wing Chun is what immediately came to my mind. And, since you already do it, it would be even better for her to have someone who understands to work out with. Grappling systems might also be good. The best would probably be Taiji, but not the healthpeace and light- crap usually taught. White Warlock was right (we allways are- little insider joke there ), she'd probably do best with an art that has a heavy sensitivity focus.

Even if nothing happened other than the wrong people finding out you gave your kid pepper spray, you'd get charged with endangering a minor. If he did use it, or an accident happened, you'd both be charged. Pepper srray is also on the list of things not allowed in most schools, as it is considered a weapon. Not a great plan.

Yes! Yes!!! YESS!!!!! Sauzin, you are spot on! This is what I mean whenever I harp on learning principles instead of isolated moves, techniques, or weapons! American Kenpo knifework is our base techniques/movements done with a knife in your hand. Stickwork is empty hands done with more reach and articulation. The moves with a bo staff are similar to those of many other weapons, including empty hands and swords (a JMA practitioner was the first to demonstrate this to me, so I know this concept isn't unique to AK). Learn principles, not just moves, and you can use whatever you pick up! Even firearms- a lot of the principles transfer. My brohter is one of the top qualifiers at the fireing range (Sherrifs' Office) every 4 mo. And he shoots from a neutral bow! Outstanding post, Sauzin!

If all else fails, get your favorite white 100% cotton ghi and a few packets of Rit dye. Make sure you use plenty of dye, though, or it will come out pink. I wear grey ghi's, and that is what I do is either use too little black on cotton, or a lot of black on a blend. Use a dye setter as well, and wash seperately a few times (unless you like pink tones in the rest of your laundry).

Would yo all believe I'm speachless? OK, how about humbled? OK, maybe not- but you can believe that I'm honored, especially considering the quality of the 'competition'! Congrats to Staff Member of the Year- aefibird, Funniest Member of the Year- Drunken Monkey, dmoney101 & Ki, White Warlock & Trust in Training, AngelaG & How to give a cat a pill. Also to those who were nominated, and to everyone here who make this a great place to hang out- especially the staff. And, thanks, guys! :sniff!:

Agree here. This is the problem with schools that don't use realistic force, range and attacks to train with. You don't get a good feel for what is likely to happen in situations like this, and are prone to try things that will get you hurt in a real situation. A headbutt here can dammage you for life. A front kick will likely result in exactly the situation Rich described. Part of the reason a person attacks with a lot of momentum is to try and steamroller you. You have to deal with that momentum! That is the main weapon in his his attack! Either get out of the way, or if that's not possible meet it with an extremely solid stance and your arms should be a wall of defense. Yielding might work, but I wouldn't bet on it. You may be able to get under him and take out his legs- but your timeing had better be perfect or you could eat a knee. But of all the options you could name, if you have the room, get to the side and hit him as he passes!

Chef919, you gave the real answer to your problem in your second post: I had to face this with all three of my sons. I let them know that as long as they weren't responsible for the problem, if they were attacked or harrassed and had to defend themselves, I'd back them up all the way. I also let the school authorities and police know that this was my position, and I dang well meant it. I've allways told my kids that while diffusing a situation is preferable, they don't have to take continual harrassment, and NEVER have to take an assault without responding with whatever level of violence they deem necessary. I trust their judgement in this, and have gone to the wall for them with more than one petty authority figure. They'll back down from you for the same reason they don't address your sons' problem- they are spineless jerks! This sounds a little harsh, but the first thing a child has to know is it is ok to defend yourself, and his parents will back him up when in the right. Martial arts, as Dijita said, take a long time to learn. But, they can be effective in an amazingly short time. My brother, as a purple belt in American Kenpo at the time, handled a multiple armed assault by some of the Mariel Boat Lift trash in Miami several years ago. He didn't come out unscathed (I allways tell him he's so ugly it doesn't matter anyhow), but he survived in relatively good shape and actually won the fight. He worked security in Dade County, and had several seriouse conflicts, all of which he won. And purple belt is about 1 1/2yrs in most AK schools. Whatever style you choose for your son, make sure they: Spar, often with contact. For kids, this may not be for a while. And there are varrying levels of contact. But they should work students up to hard contact. Train their self defenses and attacks at realistic range. These too should progress from learning on a compliant partner to a full out attack from a resisting partner. "The List" is a definate no-no. Some systems give you a list that says 'do this for a grab, this for a punch, ...'. No list can cover all the variables in a fight. One generic defense for a grab can't address what to do if he grabs and pushes back, holds you, pins you to a wall, or pulls you in. And punches come from an infinite variety of distances, angles, configurations. Techniques should teach principles, concepts, patterns of motion. NOT if this, do this! Make sure they work the basics, and demand a degree of mastery in them before promoting. Without being drilled in basics, no technique is going to work well- especially in the real thing where muscle memory takes over from cognitive memory (another reason the 'list' won't work). As far as recomending styles, there are a lot of good ones. Schools and instructors varry though, so this would be my primary focus in choosing for your son. For self defense, American Kenpo is hard to beat. Fillipino Martial Arts can be good, and any of the Kempo family are good systems. Styles that include grappling and ground fighting in particular are good, but I don't recomend the purely grappling arts for self defense. Having said that, don't count them out completely either. Some grappling schools do a lot of striking with a lot of contact. I know striking is a part of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and moreso in Sambo and Pancration. Bottom line, keep an open mind and check out everything in your area. But know what you are looking for going in. Narrow your search down to 2-3 schools, then take a harder look at them. Don't be in a big hurry to sign him up. Considering the future investment in time and money you'll both be making, take a little extra time to decide now. Good luck!

I understand what those of you who advise him to stay with Shotokan and perfect it are saying. And there is some merit to that point of view. However, I think it could be very bennificial to expand his experience and knowlege base with another system. Especially now while he's young and full of energy. If he eventually comes back to Shotokan, which apparently is his plan, he'll have a whole different view of his system, and a lot better understanding of it as well. I understand that to those who are in an art for tradition and self improvement only might think this is herasy. But not everyone wants just that focus. If he's interested in another system, for whatever reason, I think it would be a good thing to take some time off and study something else.