TJS

I was with you right until you said "rounded". What I have seen KM teach was not terribly rounded. Let's assume you are making an art for the millitary. I don't want anything that requires a long time to train, or upkeep; I also don't care if it has anything new to offer after a yearr, that's not what the focus is. I don't care about "defeating the larger attacker" or defence when you are old, or movements anyone can do... all my trainees are oung and in excellent shape. I don't care much about being rounded... the scienerios are pretty straight-forward. I don't care about level of force, I'm training people whose job is to kill things. At the risk of getting in the same battle with the same people, I have not seen that your claim that it is well rounded is supported. It seems to be a well-designed millitary art. If you are taking it and enjoy it, more power to you. I'm sure it's effective. It is not all things to all people, and it is not particularly well rounded (that I have witnessed). I think you misunderstood my intent, let me clarify. Well rounded as in It Covers all areas of a fight. you would be hard pressed to find a single style that has such a variety of techniques. Standup fighting, Fighting From the clinch, Ground fighting, Defense from suprise attack, multiple attackers, various chokes,holds, locks weaopn defenses and counters. etc...and do them all in a way where you will be alto do them under stress. And also KM Is desined to work for men and women of all diffrent shapes and sizes. Most of the choke defneses etc are still very effectivce for smaller or weaker students. Your assumption that it only works for young fit soldiers is very innacurate..if you had ever performed the techniques you would know this. David Earth-I have not done any Gun defenses yet so I can not discuss that point with you in debth But I would have to say I have know Instructors to practice with air pistols and resisting opponets and pull them off succesfully. KM black belts have to succesfully perform the gun and knife defenses against a highly resisting attacker who is allowed to punch,kick,hit them etc...so there are always 2 sides to the story.

Well first off I think using a 75 year old is a bit extreme since it proabably makes up maybe 2% of the students.(though the head instuctor hear in austin is over 60 and sparrs full contact and generally does well with the younger crowd. I guess I should have clarified said "Able bodied persons" special circumstances are sometimes required. generally people need to get used to somone throwing punches/kicks at them..that dosent mean you have to beat them...you start out gradual...one partner hold focus mits, or holds a kicking shield to his leg, hols a bag for knees etc...baby steps. Im a big beliver in sparring...there are WAY to many martial artist who would foget everything if someone came in swinging full on. But no I dont belive getting hit in the throat or with eye gouges etc is very practical. though sparring that allows groing strikes is pretty common in KM..with a cup of course.

KM1-I think Wrestling, Judo, BJJ or MUay thai all complement Krav Maga Nicely- -Nice to see a Fellow KM guy on the board. Where are you from?

I think if it was possible it would be widely known. IM not close minded im just dont belive everything without question.

When in doubt Knock them out

I agree , good points. If you have never been hit you proabably wont be prepared when someone clocks you witha good one right off the bat. Thus Contact sparring=very important IMO.

I agree it ultimatly comes down to the person.

I hope this helps, IF you had any more concersn/questions/dissagrements etc, YOu would proabably be better off talking to him dirrectly on the KM forum or by E-mail...simply becuase like i said he would be the most knowladgeable to speak too(unlike me).

Jerry Love, I made an Inquire To John Whitman(senior instructor in LA) About your concerns with KM and LE, since he is proabably much better suited to answer the question I will just post what his response was- I would respond that it's a valid question (it is!) but add the following: The writer's points assume that there is an absolute distinction between "high violence" and "police work." This is a not exactly true. Police officers are not required to reject high violence...they ARE required to recognize when it is necessary, use it, and then deescalate (this, by the way, is one of the reason their job is so, so difficult). This is also where KM's LE training differs from civilian or military -- of the three areas, LE has the greatest obligation to deescalate appropriately, and our training incorporates this. But the AGGRESSIVE side of our training is still intact...because it is taught IN CONTEXT. Our LE guys don't punch everyone -- they punch to the face when they have to make a gun disarm, or are attacked with a knife or stick. In fact, in many of the LE situations in which we show our aggressive tactics, LEOs can often use deadly force, let alone a punch to the face. Our aggressive tactics are shown in contexts where the officer or a third party is attacked and can use high levels of force but cannot access them. These contexts include: assault with weapons, self defense as it pertains to weapon retention, hostage rescue, arrest and control when the subject is violently resisting, etc. In addition, the comments assume that KM does not have arrest and control procedures or soft techniques. It does...it is just not the main focus of military or civilian training. Why? Because most military units are tasked with killing, not capturing per se, and most civilians just need to negate the threat and make distance. Only LE (and some private security and specialized military units that operate in an LE-like capacity) are tasked with neutralizing, controlling, and arresting. Therefore, only they get the emphasis on this portion of the system. One of the first units in Israel to reserve KM training was the military police. KM in the U.S. has been taught to LE since the mid-1980s. Darren himself was the person Imi worked with the integrate KM with U.S. use of force policy. He is considered a use of force expert and is often asked to lecture on the topic to departments. Imi often said that it was the job of the practitioner to be good enough that he DIDN'T have to hurt the other person too badly. That didn't mean he wanted the system softened -- it meant being able to go from passive to aggressive immediately when necessary, and then deescalate appropriately. I don't think most of us live up to this requirement -- but LE get paid to do it (although they don't get paid nearly enough). Case in point: in Texas, an LEO trained in KM was searching a house with an elderly female who, it turned out, was 5150. He rounded a corner and she put a gun to his head. He made our defense, but in mid motion saw that she was old and feeble, abandoned the punch and went to the disarm, which was succesful. This was an example of KM's combination of aggressiveness training and awareness. Two final points: in my opinion it is a mistake to make an absolute conclusion that more aggressive systems lead to improper use of force. Indeed, the opposite argument can be made (LEOs reading this can back me up on this): officers given less aggressive tactics find that those softer tactics don't work -- then they panic and move immediately to higher force options that get them into trouble. KM delivers a system that solves the problem immediately, often freeing the officer from accessing higher force options that might be called into question later. This isn't an absolute, either -- just a statement that questions the negative assumption about aggressive techniques. Or, you could sum up everything I've just written with this statement: "Agencies that adopt Krav Maga generally find their use of force complaints go down. For more information, contact Londale Theus, Director of Force Training, at londale@kravmaga.com."

Because it's McDojo Majic

OK I still dont belive it.

Load of Crap...even if it did work it wouldent be useful in a fight..If somone sat there waving there hands inf ront of me like that they would get a real KO long before I would.

I think We are going to have to agree to disagree here.

No art is McDojo proff your right, But right now TKD is in the spotlight for McDojos IMO. I think it will be very hard for BJJ to become a McDojo..from whati know they are pretty tough as far as abilitys and promotions.

KM Works under stress becasue it relies on instinctive movements and builds off of them, That does nto mean they have to be "deadly". with any art you must learn control. THere are softer techniques In KM. TO assume you will elbow everyone in the face is not true. I simpley think it has the tools that are neccesary if the time comes to use them. I'll give you an example: I just fought in a Kickboxing Match...When we clinched my first instict was to throw knees, did I? No becasue of Control. When I droped him, my first instinct was to drop down and finish the Job, did I? No..because of control. I would say its better to have the tools and not use them then to not have them if the need arrises.

Muay Thai definetly does not have that problem because they do not give belts. TKD Is definetly not the only stlye with the problem, there are good and bad schools of every style but i would say TKD has the most Mcdojos by far. When was the last time you saw an 8 year old or someone who does not have an extreme amout of skill get a BJJ black belt for example? It dosent happen.

So you feel a softer art should be used, What about when the oifficers life is threatened? You dont think it might be useful to know an effective system for that type of scenario? Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

obviously if you think an elbow to the face(as in the phot you point out) when a suspect is trying to take the officers gun is a use of force issue we do have very diffrent views...

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made, There the type of system that would help you in arresting a resisting subject or in general control..such as akido. Then there are styles that may be used to save an officers life ..one that has things such as gun retention, knife/stick/gun defenses and counters...multiple attackers, awarness training, ground fighting, and various ranges of fighting. Being attacked is a very real threat whether it be by one, two, armed or unarmed., how many officers loose their life to their own gun? AN officer can use whatever force he feels neccesary as long as it is justified..someone trying to take his gun would warrant some serious attention in my opinion. KM is simple, effective and very well rounded.

TKD tends to pump out blackbelts like a factory. and yes I have a 1st deg black belt in TKD.

instead of taking a fragment why not quote the whole thing-"from prisoner transport to "take no prisoners"." that means they foucus on both sides of the scope. "The Krav Maga Force Training Division (KMFTD) has taken important steps to refine Krav Maga for the needs of American law enforcement. Keenly aware of use-of-force issues facing law enforcement, KMFTD gathered top authorities in the use-of-force field, including: deputy district attorneys police liability defense lawyers police administrators top defensive tactics instructors In particular, the U.S. Chief Instructor, Darren Levine, is a Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles County. He lectures frequently on use-of-force issues. This team established a defensive tactics system that protects law enforcement officers from harm and law enforcement agencies from liability." dont forget that part.

There are about 5 diffrent Krav Maga schools in Austin, Come by and try out a free class..I promise you its everything you listed and more What part of town do you live in?

I would put my money on the MT fighter vs a karate practitioner whether they had been training 2 weeks, 2 years or 20 years...everything else being equal

Krav Maga has a Force training (IE) law enforcment program...They have trained Countless Police officers across the US. http://www.kravmaga.com/Home/Programs/Law_Enforcement_-_TOC/law_enforcement_-_toc.html has everything you want to know about the Force training division. has info on it...Also KM does have softer/control techniques.

Tay Son Nhan South Shaolin Kung Fu is the Stlye. My style is Krav Maga, and I have done TKD in the past. It will be just Kickboxing..waist up any kicks/punches..I love leg kicks but oh well. I appreiate your help, basically as you said I was just wondering if they were going to be close range combo type hitters or use alot of distance kicking. Thanks Travis