LOILOI44

Yes, but Judo teaches you how to take down a person when they are moving. I think this whole arguement boils down to two issues, speed and training. If you train to stop a person who wants to go to the ground, and execute your technique quicker than they do; then you can prevent going to the ground. There have been whole threads about the 90% of all fights going to the ground: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1363 I won't go into it now, the thread pretty much covers it all. In order to be a good grappler, you have to know how to grapple. In order to beat a striker, you have to know how to strike. You need to train to be a well rounded martial artist. This is a fact which I think has not changed through out history. The difference is that people have made fighting more scientific and have tried to analyze it more.

Grass? That's got to make laundry day really suck.

OK, you've got my attention. What makes it work so well for law enforcement?

I was just curious to see what type of surface you practice on. I once saw an aik-jitsu class that practiced on hard wood floors. They would do full speed techniques on hard wood. I thought this was crazy. I have to say that they had the most amazing breakfalls I have ever seen. The school has since been closed, but I was amazed by their ability. Has anybody seen anything like this, or do you practice on a hard surface?

Kirves, good link. It looks like some real basic stuff that will work. Too bad I can't read Finnish.

WOW, I was floored by this thread. I'm shocked nobody else saw a problem with it. When I first walked into my dojo I was told that safety was the primary concern. When I stepped on the mat and did randori (sparring) I was paired with a senior black belt. He played me only as hard as I was willing to play him. He actually let me work techniques and corrected me when I was wrong. He didn't have the need to throttle me. He knows he could. This philosiphy trickled down. I now take great care with any beginers. If a new student steps on the mat and wants to play hard, then adjustments are made. It's not like my school is "soft" either. My teacher is from Japan, and trained in the true "old style." The man used to do winter training in the mountains wearing nothing more than a gi and sandals. Maybe my school's philosiphy is out dated, but it works well for me. JJfighter, I don't mean any disrespect to you or your school, but I feel that you as the senior martial artist in your style has the responsibility to let a new student dictate the pace they want to train at. I'm sure you could find somebody who would like to spar as hard as you do. It sounds like she was new to your class. I don't think that this new student was arrogant. It sounds like she was just scared. As time progresses if she still has an attitude then it's ok to play hard. I don't know what she will learn by getting destroyed her first class. For me I thought martial arts were about learning and not seeing if I can beat you up.

making your own hakama, now that's dedication. I sent my gi to the dry cleaners to have a patch sewn on.

Kirves, you are a voice of reason. Well thought out post.

My advice to you is visit various dojos in you area. Get out your local yellow pages and make a list or schools that sound interesting. Then visit them and ask if you can either watch or participate in a class. Some dojos will let you study a class for free or pay a small mat fee. I would highly reccomend not studying at a school that requires you to sign a long term contract. I know somebody who bought a "life time" contract with a certain martial arts school. I won't mention any names, but it begins with a T and ends with a Schulman. I would never go to a school that treats my training like a Jack LaLane membership. Do your research, and you won't go wrong. As far as styles go, they all have something to offer. I would tend to worry more about school than style

Am I jealous of BJJ? I would have to say no. My personal oppinion is that BJJ is an incomplete art. It specializes in one area (which it does very well) but it still lacks many components of being a complete art. I feel that it encourages chest thumping and a bravado that doesn't exist in TMAs. Things like Helio Gracies followers bring a coffin into the fight with Kimura seems like a classless act to me. I always thought that martial arts should teach humility. I do feel that BJJ is good at what it does. It's brought new publicity to martial arts, that is never a bad thing. It has it's place, but it's not my cup of tea. That is my oppinion. You can disagree with it, but it is an oppinion. It can't be wrong. Everybody is entitiled to an oppinion. As far as this thread goes...I can see how the logic got skewed. If 99% of all fights go to the ground, and BJJ specializes in ground fighting, then it must be the best art for today. It makes sense, but it's not accurate. The original statistic is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground. This is based on a study done by either the F.B.I. or U.S.D.O.J. (I can't find the actual study. I belive it was done in the 70's) It was about fights involving police officers. It doesn't cover fights on street corners, bars, or school yards. This study was done on police officers because officers report any fight they have. It usually involves an arrest. People who get into a bar fight usually do not go to the police unless they are seriously hurt. Why would you? You can't study every fight. This statistic is also skewed because of things like tactics taught by The N.Y.P.D. NYPD cops were taught to get as much back up as possible and then jump on the person. "Dog pile on the rabbit," as it was called. If everybody is literally jumping on a person the fight is almost guarantees that a fight will end up on the ground. The statistic is also misleading because a normal fight usually does not involve handcuffing your opponent. It was always thought that a suspect was at a disadvantage if they were on the ground. It was considered the best way to cuff a person. In MMA competitions you have the luxuary of using the ground as an additional weapon. This is where BJJ excells. In law enforcement on the street, you do not have that option. You are armed, and you must protect that weapon at all costs. Heelhook, and JJfighter, feel free to dispute me. Please remember that the fisrt part is strictly my editorial oppinion. The second part is fact. I welcome any discussion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that BJJ can't be useful for law enforcement. There is some truth to the stat that 90% of all fights end up on the ground. If you're down there you had better know what you're doing. As far as the argument of not arresting expert grapplers, you'd be surprised. People will shock you at how good they squirm and fight when they don't want to be arrested. Kids today watch tv. They see events like the UFC. They have older brothers and friends who they roll around with. I'm not saying they will be able to perform complex chokes and arm locks, but it's doesn't take much training to ground and pound. I think it's essential for every police officer to study something. If you only knew what the self defense program of the department I used to work for, you would be sick. It's feeble at best. I worked for the larget department in the counrty, and when the training was over I was asking myself "Is that it?" We were told more of what we couldn't do than what we could do. It was more about the department protecting itself from liability. Fortunately many of the cops I knew studied something.

JJfighter please show me a post where I am anti-BJJ I never said anything like that. I just don't subscribe to the same belief that you do; that BJJ is the ultimate art. There is no such thing. God himself did not create BJJ and hand it down to the Gracies. If I am not mistaken, the rules of NHB say that if the ref feels a fighter is in danger, he can call the fight. Yoshida did not stop the fight, the ref did. You might not agree with the call, but the fact is that the ref called it, and it was his right to do so. If I use your logic, the The Giants did not lose to the 49ers in the NFL Playoffs. It was a bad call by the refs, but they still ultimately lost. I've heard nothing but excuses on this thread. Royce wasn't in "game mode", it was a bad call, it was a conspiracy by the Yakuza to make the Gracies look bad. I'm not turning this into a BJJ vs Judo thread. The fact is, agree with it or not Gracie lost. He did not lose to Butterbean, or Joey Buttafuco. He lost to a gold medal, world class Judo player. There will be a rematch I am sure. If Gracie loses again what will the excuse be? Did he not have his rice krispies? Royce Gracie is a great martial artist. Probably one of the best alive today. He's done more for the martial arts than anybody in recent memory. I'm not anti-BJJ like you claim. The whole Gracie family have their place in MA history. As far as if I have ever been choked out, I have been choked; but never unconscious. Is that some new technique to be choked and to lose consciousness? If so, what can you learn from it? Some chokes work very slowly. You might not know your are being choked till it's too late

HeelHook, good argument; but if everybody is growing then nobody is really growing. If we are all getting bigger, then doesn't it kind of level the playing field? As far as JJJ goes, it is based on the principle of minimum effort, maximum results. It's all about physics. In JJJ as well as Judo throws, the key is to get your center of gravity lower than your opponents. Granted to accomplish feats like throwing a man who weighs 50-100 lbs more than you does take much practice, but it can be done. In my years of studying JJJ, I have never heard this technique won't work on a guy bigger than you. JJJ isn't about using strength, it's about using your opponent's anatomy and weight against them.

From what I know about BJJ, no I feel it would not be a good style for law enforcement. It would be a good suplement, but as a primary art; there are better choices. I'm not an expert on BJJ, but it was my impression that your intention was to take your opponent down and then position yourself to get them to submit. "Possibly the premier ground-fighting martial art. Made famous by Royce Gracie in the early UFCs in the mid-1990's, it specializes in submission grappling when both fighters are on the ground. Techniques include positional control (especially the "guard" position), and submissions such as chokes and arm locks." That quote come came right from https://www.bjj.org. Being in situations where I have made arrests, BJJ would not work for me. When making an arrest, especially in an urban setting; you want to cuff your suspect quick and get them out of the scene. The longer you are there, the more things that can happen. It can rain strange items off roof tops (ie. flower pots, air conditioners, toilets). Being on the ground in uniform is not a good place to be.

Kirves, good link. That is efficient and doesn't put the officer in danger. It's a shame that the self defense programs of some police departments are so lacking.

Sorry maybe it was my fault for not explaining myself fully. For me I always felt it was best to take a suspect down and not have to go down with them. To do a tackle takedown with a firearm puts you at a serious disadvantge. I felt it would be best to take the suspect down using a throw or sweep and then apply a joint lock and then cuff. At worst if the suspect was down and you were still standing, it allows you put distance between you and them. This would allow you to use non lethal or lethal force if nescessary.

Being a retired member of the law enforcement community, I would recomend either Tomiki Aikido, traditional JuiJitsu,or AikiJitsu. I don't know enough about hapkido, but I hear it would also be effective. I would steer away from BJJ. Let me explain. In BJJ the idea is to go to the ground with your opponent. I never wanted to go to the ground with a suspect if I could help it. You do not want to roll around with a person while you have a gun. This is a perscription for trouble. I always found it was best to take your opponent down and still be able to be standing. Judo would work too. It is good to know what you are doing on the ground, but it is not the best position. Something else to think about with striking styles...repeated blows to a person's face will make them bleed. It's not the healthiest thing to come in contact with a person's blood, and it could open you up to many law suits.

Hey Zero, what's Small Circle all about? I was always curious about it. It's a famous book. How does SCJJ differ from traditional JJ?

No touch KO's are fascinating. It's something you could never do in a fight, but it just goes to show you how little we know about the human body. Iolair, great use of facts; but sometimes martial arts can defy science.

Traditionally belts were never washed. That is how colored belts came to be. Everybody starts with white. Eventually it turns yellow from dirt and sweat. Then it would turn green, brown and black. Finally it would fray and the inside threads would come out making it a white belt again. I always tried to wear a dirty white belt as a badge of honor.

If you study TKD, Judo for you would be a new world. For $25 a month you can't really go wrong. As far as the techniques go, there are no punches and kicks. There are katas, but they aren't usually required till higher ranks. There is a self defense aspect to it, but that isn't what Prof. Kano intended when he created Judo. The ranks can vary from dojo to dojo, and association affiliation. They all start with white and end with black (actually red and white when you reach the really high ranks, but there's only about 10 people in this country who hold ranks that high.) In order to advance you need to compete, or play in tournaments. If the place is close I would try it out, the price is right. If you hate it, you can always quit and go back to your old dojang. It seems like a can't loose situation. Don't be put off by the location. I know of many Y.M.C.A.s with exceelt martial art programs. Good Luck

I don't think people have changed that much. Until we evolve, human anatomy will always be the same. If you cut off blood flow to the brain, a person will still pass out. A strike to a pressure point will still disrupt a person's nervous system. It's my feeling that MMA competitions are just attracting a larger competitor. I'd also like to know the percentage of MMA competitors who use performance enhancing drugs. If it still exists in the NFL (don't think it doesn't) why wouldn't it be in the high testosterone world of MMA. The human body can only get so big with diet and exercise. Going back to what Kirves said, you can't train for MMA competitions part time. It is a full time job. The Gracies (not taking anything away from their accomplishments) start young, and train full time. Rickson isn't working in a steel mill, he's training all day. If you show that kind of commitment to something you are obviously going to be good at it. I liked the article it brought up some good points. The author apparantly studies in Japan. I agree with him that all JJJ can not be used. Horseback riding and floral aranging (samuari actually studied floral aranging, it was thought to imporve battlefiel strategy) might be valuable life skills, but don't have a place in the world of today's martial arts. The author is absolutely right about the issue of weapon training. I am fortunate in the fact that the school I studied at do not teach weapons till higher ranks. JJJ and BJJ share so many techniques, and given BJJ's success I see no reason why JJJ doesn't have it's place in MMA. Now only to find someone who will answer the call.

All I've heard in this thread is how the ref was wrong, how it was a bad call. Is it so inconceivible that a gold medal, world champion Judoka can defeat a Gracie? It's not like he was just some dude off the street, he was an excellent martial artist. The Gracies have a legendary reputation in the martial arts world, but will not win every match. This is why we actually have sporting events. On any given day, anybody can lose. I'm sure enough money will be waved in people's faces and there will be a rematch. Till then, Gracie lost; end of story!

Excellent points Kirves. Good examples of how enviornment can dictate techniques.

Please tell me where I said that I don't like BJJ. Please define what your definition of constructive criticism is. An oppinion that disagrees with yours can't be constructive? Where do you think BJJ comes from? Every single technique that I saw on https://www.bjj.org is right out of Kodokan Judo by Prof. Jigoro Kano. Techniques like the scarf hold, and the paintbrush, and the triangle have been around for centuries, they just have different names. JJFighter, I was making an observation. It was an observation based on my training in martial arts. My experience in the martial arts is different from yours, does that make mine any less valuable than yours? As far as the samurai go, where did you hear that samurai did not practice JuiJitsu? There were many different versions, but they were all JuiJitsu. Also not all samurai rode horses. In addition, if a person could be effective in combat while wearing clunky armor don't you think they would be more effective with out it?