LOILOI44

Johnny I guess we look for different things in a martial art. For me it's about being able to defend myself, and a form of exercise both physical and mental. I don't have the need to prove myself constantly.

I agree completely. I also will say that BJJ is alot more consistent in the type of training they do as far as going hard and not just handing out a black belt to anyone until they have reached a certain level of technical know how and such. Traditional arts USED to be that way until they came to America. Actually there still are traditonal schools that are still run that way. You just need to know how to find them. They usually don't advertise. I guess it goes against tradition.

Maybe it's just the school I come from, it's as old school as they come. But the first week I was there, I was playing randori. I do have to know katas, but that's only a very small part of the time I spend. As far as ground work goes, I spend 2 days a week working ne-waza, and this is when I don't go to Judo. If I go to Judo it's 4 days. Maybe my school isn't typical, but it is as close to the way they train in Japan as anything I have ever seen. Johnny, do you have illustrations of these techniques?

Well if I go by strictly what I have seen, then I must assume that BJJ players just plain can't hack TJJ. I've had BJJ players come into my school and leave after three classes after getting their butts handed to them religiously. And this was strictly a ground fighting (BJJ's forte) class. I know this is not true for all BJJ players. It would be rediculous if I thought like that. But for you to say with five private BJJ lessons you could beat any TJJ black belt is just plain wrong. How do you know how hard my school trains? You say that TJJ schools just don't teach the same things that BJJ schools teach, then I ask you this...and I have asked this numerous times; please tell me a technique in BJJ that does not exist in TJJ. Tell me what makes BJJ the ultimate art as you claim after 5 lessons you are beating black belts(I am not doubting this story either, there are some bad schools out there). What is so revolutionary about it that us old school TJJ people are missing out on? Every, and I mean every BJJ technique I have seen exists in TJJ. Please enlighten me with facts and not oppinion.

You really know about your TJJ schools. How many did you go to 1?

I have seen two different figures. I heard 207 consecutive and 194 consecutive victories. Regardless he has a lifetime record of 528 wins, 16 losses and 15 draws. In 1984 Olympics in L.A. he injured his leg on his 2nd match so bad he could barely walk. He won a gold medal and had to almost be carried on to the podium by the silver medalist because he was unable to walk. I have never heard of an athlete having that big of a winning percentage, 94% lifetime.

Actually I was just trying to supply a simple answer to the original question. I understand there is more to my original post. In the 17th to the 19th centuries there were almost 200 different styles of Ju Jutsu in Japan. Each one specialized in different aspects of combat. Styles like Kyushin-ryu speaclizied in striking with hands and feet to vital areas of an opponents body. Takenouchi-ryu (1532) taught holds and pressure points. Samurai armor is nothing like the armor used in Europe around the same periods. Samurai armor was light weight and flexible. It was not made of solid peices of metal. It was usually small pieces bound by fabric and also made of bamboo. Yes, karate was formally introduced from Okinawa in the early 20th century, but Okinawa was not occupied by Japan until the year 1888. That does not mean that techniques of karate were not practiced in traditional JJ.

Back to sansoouser's original question, Gigoro Kano did not create Judo as a sport. In The Meiji Period in Japanese history the old feudal system of govenrment colapsed in Japan. An imperial form of government was now in existence. The wearing of swords was now forbidden. Ju Jutsu was now disappearing from Japanese society. Prof. Kano realizing the value of martial arts for not only defensive purposes, but also for exercise created Judo. If you read Kodokan Judo, there is a whole section of self defense. I recomnend watching the movie Sanshiro Sugata. You can buy it on Amazon.com.

No 10th dans are alive, it's a rank given to dead judoka's out of respect for O'sensei Kano. To compete you have to know Japanese all the scoring is in Japanese, how did you get by? How long did you train to reach 5th dan? I've trained with the Open Japanese Judo Champ and he was only a 3rd dan and he's trained since the time he was 6. (over 20 years) Actually there is one 10th Judoka alive today it is Yamashita Sensei. He is the most successful Judoka ever. He won 207 consecutive matches, and only lost 16 in his whole career (15 were in high school competing against adults in open tournaments.) I figured out how Broomhilda went from 1st Dan to 5th Dan in six years. Broomhilda must be part canine. Seven canine years are actually one human year. In 42 years he went from 1st dan to 5th dan. That I believe!

If you are a 5th dan in Judo and made that in only 6 years from your white belt then you must have batsaguned every promotional tournament you entered. That's quite impressive. I guess the fact that you study under Yamashita Sensei (the only 10th degree) it's only natural. That is quite a pedigree. I guess we can look foward to seeing you compete in Athens for the U.S.

A 32 hour course will give you a slight knowledge of the art of Judo. Old school philosophy says it takes about 5 years to master 1 throw. Yamashita Sensei won 207 consecutive matches, and the only throw he used was Osto Gari. If anybody wants to get educational credit for studying martial arts, move to Japan. You can actually major in it in college.

Nothing against BJJ, but let's face it the Gracies have not beaten evey TJJ and Judo player out there. The Gracies have an excellent track record, but till any of them face an opponent the likes of Yasuhiro Yamashita (207 consecutive victories, 16 losses lifetime) I will not accept BJJ as the "Ultimate" art. It does have it's merits, but it's not the revolution people think. The techniques in BJJ have been around for thousands of years, just called different names. The wheel has not been reinvented, just packaged differently. I have asked before for somebody to show me a technique in BJJ that is not in TJJ or Judo. Nobody has supplied any info to support arguments like "Helio made BJJ is more scientific than TJJ because of his small size", "TJJ chokes require more strength than BJJ chokes." Please somebody give me factual evidence that backs up some of these claims.

Judo was originally created as a martial art. Jigoro Kano had no intention of creating a sport when he created Judo. If you look in a book like Kodokan Judo, there is a whole section dedicated to self defense. Judo today for the most part is part is only really practiced as a sport, but can easily be modified for self defense. If you could find a Judo school that also teaches traditional Jujutsu, then I have a feeling you will be very happy with the results.

Do you think I am saying anything negative about BJJ? Am I saying that TJJ is better than BJJ? I don't think I said anything like that. As far as the NHB fighting thing...Anybody I know who trains in TJJ does not compete in NHB events. I know a few who compete in Judo, who have had a good amount of success. Do you know of any TJJ practitioners who compete in NHB events? I personally have a job and can't devote all my time to training for NHB events. I don't have enough money to train full time and either does anybody I know. Is success in a controlled NHB event the measure of a martial art? I've heard statements like TJJ chokes require strength. That statement is dead wrong. Can somebody tell me a TJJ choke that requires strength to execute? I just think there are many misconceptions about TJJ. I've heard that BJJ is more scientific than TJJ. How is it more scientific? Can you tell me techniques that are in BJJ that TJJ does not have? If you can, please show me an illustration of the technique. The title of this thread is what's difference between BJJ an JJ, not which martial art is better. That argument can never be won. A martial art which is best for me, might not be best for you!

Raiden, I am sorry but I disagree with you. I don't know of a single TJJ choke that requires much strength when applied correctly. It was always my impression that TJJ was never about using strength. As far as the guard goes, it is by no means unique to BJJ. It's been in TJJ for hundreds of years. I am just curious what is in TJJ that is not effective for "real life"? As far as Judo goes, every Judo technique is a TJJ technique. With the exception of maybe Kata Garuma (that is a throw similar to what called a Fireman's Carry in wrestling.) Jigoro Kano was a practitioner of Tenshin-Shinyo-Ryu and Kito Ryu Jujutsu. This is by no means any kind of an attack on BJJ. I just think when it comes to TJJ, there are very many misconceptions. You might not have observed much ground work in any of the TJJ schools you have seen, but that doesn't mean it is not there.

Can you explain how he did that? Traditional Jujutsu is very sceientific. It's all about anatomy and physics. Every single techinque I have seen in BJJ exists in TJJ. As far as Judo goes, there is a whole area of training which deals with nothing but ground fighting. It is called Ne-waza. Judo is not all about stand up throws. Check out something called Kosen Judo. It's all about fighting on the ground. The true difference is that BJJ covers a small part of what TJJ covers.

If my conversions are correct, 50 kph translates to 31.3 mph. That is nothing compared to 96 mph for a fast ball, and 102 mph for a hockey puck. I agree with the fact that a well placed punch to the throat will require hospitalization, not cause death. It is a dangerous technique not a deadly one. If you were to have your house keys in your hand that is a different story all together.

Johnny I think he's had enough man. I'll say when he's had enough man! I couldn't put my finger on what I was feeling, but thank you hobbitbob for summing it up for me.

Johnny, Like I said earlier we will not agree on this. There is nothing you could say that will change my mind on this topic. I still feel that if I am rolling with somebody in my class then they are my responsibility. I've been practicing martial arts long enough to know when a technique is applied properly. You are entitled to feel however you do, but I will never share your view. I feel that it goes against what my opinion of martial arts is all about. Maybe it's because my school is very traditional.

By far it's Sum Ting Dum. C'mon a stripper who killed three people is good enough of a testimonial for me

C'mon you can't mean to tell me that after those videos were made they didn't put on their gold chains, jump in their I-ROC's and drive to Bensonhurst to play a wicked game of hand ball. I could have sworn during one of those videos I heard TKA playing in the background. I might be wrong though.

Actually I have to say that there was one thing about the video that I really did like. The segment where they were teaching karate to a guy in a wheel chair. That I felt was a good thing

Sorry, I wasn't aware of any time the US occupied Japan, or any time we outlawed practice of Judo and Jujutsu. The US did forbid Japan from having it's own standing military. Perhaps you might be thinking of the Meiji period(1868-1911) when the newly formed imperial government forbid the wearing of swords. Because of this jujutsu faded in Japanese society, which eventually caused Prof. Jigoro Kano to create Judo. If you have any doccumentation of this I would love to see it. This was always my impression of Japanese martial arts history. In the US Judo was alive and well before WWII. Even actors like James Cagney had a black belt in Judo which he earned well before WWII. Teddy Roosevelt even had his own dojo in the White House. There are even stories of Judo clubs arising out of Japanese internment camps. Sorry I'm just a stickler for history.

I don't know if I can top that post!

I want to dispel some things I have seen in this thread. Judo was not designed as a sport. In the Meji period (1868-1911) Japan went back to an imperial form of government. Because of the prohibition of wearing swords, the samurai no longer existed. With that jujutsu was slowly vanishing. In 1883 the Tokyo Police Department started hiring jujutsu masters to train police officers. Prof. Jigoro Kano saw the value of martial arts for physical exercise, and emotional and spiritual well being. In 1882 he founded Kodokan Judo. It was taken largely from the style of JJ called Tenshin-shinyo-ryu. Judo came into real popularity after a series of contests between the Kodokan and the Tokyo PD. The Kodokan performed so well that Judo eventually became the primary martial art of Japan. If you read Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano, there are self defense techniques against punches and kicks. Because of it's ability to be performed with no long term negative effects to an opponent it eventually became a sport. In 1964 Judo gained international popularity after it was made an Olympic event. Today it is the second most popular sport in the world. Back to the original question as to how Judo is different from JJ. The answer really is that it is not. All Judo techniques exist in JJ.