Kirves

Aikijujutsu was developed on and for war, it is classical bujutsu. It's techniques were honed on battlefields. Aikido was developed from Aikijujutsu techniques for a more peaceful purpose. Aikido's techniques have been honed for modern budo.

"KOUKISTA POLVIASI!", that's Finnish. Kibadachi is the "horse stance", i.e. wide stance with your feet a lot wider than your shoulder and pointing forward.

To the best of my knowledge, they use the same symbol, but they call the forces In and Yo.

HAHAHAA! LOL! LMAO! So, tomorrow they won't bother you at all in the kindergarten dinner hall? Great, you can have all the cookies for yourself.

Magikchiongson, exactly my point. The problem is, if you want to try TMA in a Vale Tudo event, where can you find a club that trains you for it? Nowhere! If I want to go to UFC, my choice would be BJJ, Shootfighting, MMA, or similar school, because they have the training, they have several classes for it everyday, they incorporate the rules in their everyday training, they have the equipment, the experience. If you go to a TMA club, you may get everyday class of 1-2 hours if you're lucky. And those 1-2 hours of training will not concentrate on fighting with the tournament rules, nor does the club and it's instructors have the experience of such an ordeal. You'd be considered fool if you went there and asked for such training. We'll see some TMA artists win these events when someone with the required expertise of coaching for these events, the facilities and the time, starts to do just that. But as long as everyone interested in those tournaments just opt for the MMA club instead, we won't be seeing it. The TMA aren't some silver bullet which would allow someone with 2 hours of daily training to suddenly become better fighter than the Gracies. Can't reasonably expect that to happen. And that is what the BJJ enthusiasts should understand.

Notice: This is one loooong post. If you aren't that interested, spare yourself from my inability to express myself in a more brief manner . There isn't much new to this thread in this post, just clarifying my point of view a bit more. I never said you did, I just pointed out that I think weapons are part of this. Exactly. Now, I have done apprx. two years of kali/escrima in the past. For someone to say that BJJ is the best art unless I go to UFC and prove I'm better than them is ridiculous. My training in kali/escrima was over 50% weaponry. In traditional jujutsu weapons often get less than 50% focus but they still are part of it. How about someone who studies kendo, or iaido? Do you agree that BJJ is superior to Kendo unless the Kendo guy goes to UFC unarmed and proves that he can beat BJJ practitioner? Ridiculous. Apples and oranges. Hmmm... In kali/escrima I was told that I need to become good with the weapon first, before I can try the same without it (and in my experience, that worked better than if I tried some new kali technique unarmed first). It is always a bad idea to think every art is done the same way your own is (I know, that in Aikido the unarmed basics are usually learned first). And how do you apply your argument to kendo? Iaido? Bojutsu? You forget the whole point. Yes, if I can't handle myself against a BJJ player in unarmed combat (with rules), then I am worse than him in unarmed combat (with rules). I am not studying to become the best in unarmed combat though, that's where the difference lies. I am studying how to become a better fighter. There's a difference. I study the use and improvisation of weapons. I study unarmed defences against weapons. I study mass attack defences. I study first aid. That's not the same as studying for a BJJ contest (BTW: have you looked at the rules in BJJ tournament?). Again, my point was about BJJ students claiming that TMA is inferior. TMA is usually about weapons. Traditional Jujutsu is for sure. Now you try to take that away from the art and then compare them? I know a BJJ club about a 100km from my town. They have two hour classes every night. For those who do competitions, they also have morning classes. That means the best of them train 4 hours a day just to beat others in tournaments. I train apprx. 8 hours a week and over half of it is TMA weapons training. Now are you sure that if I can't beat a BJJ student who trains more in a month than I do in a year, in an unarmed combat, it is proof that my art is inferior? Or could it possibly anyhow be that I don't have the interest to train unarmed combat as much as he does so he as a BJJ/UFC/NHB person is better than I am, but not necessarily prove that his art is in general better than mine? I do think though that we are losing focus here a bit. Especially with this weapons stuff, but weapons are a huge part of the big picture. What was the question? The question was :"Why don't TMA people go to Vale Tudo tournaments?". The answer TMA people give is: "We aren't interested, we study 10h a week and of that time we want to spare for unarmed stuff, sword stuff, staff stuff, shuriken stuff, naginata stuff, heiho (strategy for more than one-on-one fights) and so on. We obviously don't have the time or the interest to train unarmed stuff so much we could even compete." The reply from Vale Tudo people is: "BS. You are just afraid you would loose, because you know your art is inferior." And my point remains: the fact that TMA people decide to devote their time to different stuff, is no proof that either A) TMA unarmed methods are inferior to BJJ unarmed methods, given that they are trained as intensely and immensely by equally talented students. B) TMA fighter would loose to BJJ student in a absolutely-no-rules-no-referee fight. There just arent any such people around who'd have trained TMA unarmed methods professionally for a decade or two so they could go and test it against those who have wrestled professionally for that time period. Anyone interested in UFC takes another route from the beginning and thus I don't think we'll see many TMA people in UFC in the future either.

I don't think they are "a mute issue". If half of my training is for using and/or defending against weapons, then I don't like someone coming to me saying my style is bad because he can beat me unarmed in a ring. Just as I don't go to a BJJ school with sticks saying that their art sucks if they won't beat me in a stickfight.

He will probably say "Try my karate." I don't think he'll say "Come to my karate cause there's nothing better in existence." That's the difference between what a TMA guy says and what the BJJ guys here say. Yes, I believe BJJ is incomplete. I also believe "my karate" is incomplete. The point is not which art is complete, which isn't. The point is you don't see me running around the crowd claiming my style beats any style. But you do see the BJJ guys doing that. The BJJ guys can not say that their art is incomplete, but TMA people can say it about their arts. It's all an ego thing, I guess. Add a rule to the Pride that katanas and knives, sticks and staffs are allowed weapons in the ring and you'll see some nice changes in the results - I guess to the favor of traditional jujutsu. Now, that's what I mean when I say BJJ is incomplete.

It is normal in many traditional katas. It is also normal that when Americans modify the katas or create new katas, they tend to leave the breathing side out, because they don't understand the how and why of it.

But it is not only that. It is just as much an empty hand art. Half the drills you do with knives are also done empty handed.

Shootfighting is mostly like training in a mixed martial art. Covers all empty hand ranges adequately. Some WC hand stuff might work with it, but the footwork and general movement is different from WC. Shootfighting is really like training thaiboxing + jujutsu + wrestling all together.

Padded mats, hardwood floor, grass, snow, sand, sometimes we go with ice, asphalt or cement quickly just to see what it's like.

Heh... KM is a good art, but I tend to disagree it would be optimal for law enforcement. Great for military and self defence, but not necessarily the police. My reasoning is simple: too much focus on hard techniques (read: hitting, strikes). The reason why KM is so effective is that it relies on direct and simple throat, groin, solar, knee strikes and direct/quick/dirty tactics. No good for a law enforcement officer. But, yes, it is effective for quick and dirty self defence, can't argue with that.

Looking for people with experience in this style.

Great! Now if we just get another similar book on the modern history of Korean arts and all is well.

Yeah, it's nice to know the enemy. In Finland, every male does a military service (well, some don't serve but that's another story) and thus every adult male on the streets has some training. The methods on the booklet are barebone minimum of course, usually the instructor is a martial artist and adds some of his own to the syllabus. Some special forces are exclusively trained in Krav Maga, and professional soldiers often get Hokutoryu Jujutsu training. What I like about the training, is that it trains these basic techniques in a good live manner, lots of sparring and action with mits and pads. You can go far with little basics when the training methods are good.

No, you're wrong. Your art is not as good as mine and you are a coward if you won't step into the ring to prove it! You are absolutely right. People have different reasons for taking martial arts and we should welcome them all, tolerate them all, and if we need to argue with them, we need to shut up and train some more.

Heh, nice, thinking is always good. Now that I look at my post, it looks like a bit of generalized rant... Well, what the heck. The funny thing is that the Vale Tudo (I use that term as a generic synonym for all the "NHB-freefighters") guys make the fact that TMA people don't go to tournaments seem as if it meant they were hiding under a rock somewhere. That certainly is not the case. Few people in my club go to tournaments, but our door is always open for reasonable people. If you don't come in barking challenges, but ask politely if you can attend a class, you are welcome. Our classes always include free sparring too, as well as limited sparring drills. If a guy wants to test us, just come in and train a class with us. In two hours he will have seen some of our stuff and how we do it, and has had the chance to spar with all of us too. If he beats everyone up in the sparring sessions, good for him. Good for us too, as nothing teaches you more than sparring with someone more skilled than you are. It doesn't have to be a public tournament setting for someone to come test us out. For some weird reason, regardless of all the stuff said in the public, few people ever come to our door asking for a session.

Good points from all of you. I'd like to say something more about the pro vs. amateurship of martial artists. As already pointed out, most of the "UFC" people are pros. Most of TMA instructors are not. This is of course just generalization, there are people in UFC who have real jobs, as well as there are TMA professionals too, they are the exception to the rule. But what is different about them is the purpose. Many people start BJJ, Mixed Martial Arts, Vale Tudo or whatever because they are interested in fighting in tournament environment. That is the total opposite of the person who joins the local Koryu Jujutsu club because he is completely not interested in tournaments. Both guys study 10 years, and whoa what happens? The Vale Tudo guy comes saying the TMA guy is a coward or incompetent because he won't go to a tournament! Hello, it was a personal choice made ten years ago. I use myself as an example. I am not the best fighter in the dojo I'm a member in. The instructor is the best of us. There are dozens of clubs in my hometown. I would believe that some instructor in our town could beat my instructor up. But there probably is some instructor in some other town who could beat the best guy of our town. There may be someone in some town who is the best fighter in our country. But hey, there are people in other countries who can beat him up! Now, why on earth would any of these people concern themselves with wether or not they are the best fighter in the world? I have a full time job, a family with a child and pets. I have other hobbies besides martial arts. My priorities lie elsewhere than proving that me or my art is the best. If some day I'm the best in my dojo, I'm still humble enough to understand, there probably is someone in my town who can beat me still. If I get to be the best in our town, I'm still not the best in my country. If ever I become the best in my dojo, what will I do? Will I go around fighting people to prove it? No, I will concentrate on helping my fellow dojomates to make them as good as I am. That's what budo is all about. I don't have to prove anyone anything, I'm here because other people helped me, and I'm here to help them. Do you really think I give a rat's butt if someone came to the dojo door and said he was better than me, or his style was better than mine? I say okay, and continue training as planned. Then I go home, kiss my wife, play with my kid, take out the dog, go to work and let other people wonder if they could beat me in a ring or not. It does not interest me, it does not interest many other TMA students and the problem with the Vale Tudo guys is that they try to force the TMA people to become interested when they don't give a rat's squat about it.

Yeah, too bad the uke is always too robotic and as if not really trying to attack at all. Can't recommend the Gracie book. It has the same content as the videos by the same authors some years ago. Back then nobody knew a thing about BJJ and it was easy to sell crap with huge price. Nowadays those videos are absolutely not recommended by anyone because it is apparent when compared to today's knowledge that the instruction and techniques are lacking. To buy the book with the same content is even worse. You can do so much better with other books, like that from Simco. Or check out Fighter's Notebook if you're not fixed on BJJ only.

Hmmm.. I thought one of the definitions of a "master" was the fact that he does not want to say his style is best? If you have a need to prove something, then you aren't a master - at least in the traditional budoka sense. Perhaps you are, in a modern cage fight sense, but that again doesn't have anything to do with TMA masters who have aspired their whole lives for mastery over ego and strive to become a non-competitive character in life. I was always taught that fighting is the last line of defence and only done when all else fails. A student of budo should avoid fighting whenever possible. To shout it out loud from the rooftops and put ads in the paper saying "I'm tha baddest sob in town and there's noone here who can beat me!" is plain invitation for trouble - an antithesis of budo. You are asking for trouble while studying an art of avoiding trouble - not good. If you are really interested in the philosophy of TMA and budo as it fits these arguments, I suggest you go get Chuck Norris' book "The Secret Power Within" from a library and read one short (just a couple of pages) chapter titled "Winning By Losing". Especially the barroom story at the end.

Dunno about good websites, but check this book out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0911921362/qid=1043923176/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8778148-2044914?v=glance&s=books

The style I have been studying doesn't have these kata at all. We begin with our style's three own foundation katas which teach the tactics and ideas that are the basis of our style. Then we learn traditional Okinawan katas like Bassai, Kusanku and so on.

I've never seen a karate dojo where colored gis were used, except in American magazines.

There's a difference between tournament kata and traditional kata performance. Traditionally, your breathing will sound, often forcibly, as you tighten your abs, generate the power and are mentally really into it as if in combat. In tournaments though, you are more into pleasing the judges and there are even books and videos to guide you in that. And as already pointed out, repetitions make good! 50-100 reps a day for a year or two and you got some decent technique.