RW

I'm interested in helping you test the new format

as for how I found this place....way back in ye old days message boards were called "message forums" sometimes. I wanted to find a karate message forum, and thought to myself "there must be karate forums out there..." I typed that into the URL field and here I am lol

this place is really special to me. I can talk about martial arts from an academic standpoint and also vent out about certain things from the martial arts world I would not be able to do in real life. I found many like minded people here, and I love it

In my view, kata is a combination between a mnemonic device and a form of standardization. It is a mnemonic device because kata harks back from the times when there was no youtube, no video cams, and even printed books. How are you going to transmit the knowledge of strikes, blocks, stances, footwork and transitions? Well, you could teach them individually, which would be really hard, or you could incorporate them into a sequence... a form... kata!! Sure, kata has applications, bunkai. There is no reason why actual application can't be part of a mnemonic device too, especially keeping in mind no one is going to attack just like the imaginary enemies do in the kata. So now that we got youtube, iphones, etc, why do we still do kata? It's a form of standardization. I'd say it's even a form of keeping an identity. A shotokan school anywhere across the planet would probably have the Heian katas, and if you claim to be a 3rd degree black belt in shotokan and you have never, ever learned a single heian kata.... were you really doing shotokan? Some people see kata more like shadow boxing, but I don't think that's the case. In shadow boxing you punch, block, duck, weave, move, etc, exactly like you would in a boxing match. Your shadow boxing, done correctly, would give you muscle memory and the thought process that you'd be able to apply to a boxing match, whereas kata isn't exactly like that, you're not going to do kiba dachi and hold it in a fight like you do in a kata, nor are you going to do an age uke with you other hand chambered at your hip followed by a nukite with yet another chamber. You are practicing certain principles and training methods, but it doesn't translate one-to-one to a fight, unlike shadow boxing. Just my 2 cents

By getting on the floor and train your heart out, as though there's no tomorrow by yourself if need be. Train with other MAists that you know and trust in a plethora of topic that keep that effectiveness alive. If you train seriously, then the needed connection to Karate IS STILL THERE AND ALIVE!! this is really inspiring

This school's many deficiencies led me to join Muay Thai too, but I still miss the more "artsy"aspects of a karate-like martial art, with forms and all that.

thanks guys

For those who may remember my story, I practiced karate for several years, and I loved it. I quit when it was time to go to college and never came back. 6 years ago I joined a school that taught a style completely unknown to me: "Kempo karate". Something didn't add up, since I've always been, uh, academically interested in the martial arts, as a kid I'd spend hours and hours reading everything I could about the history and idea behind different styles (the different karate schools, taekwondo, BJJ, judo, different kung fu styles, you name it), yet this kempo stuff never came across my readings. Anyway, the school was close to my home, I was itching to do martial arts again, so I decided to give it a try. The style seemed to basically amount to americanized karate. You know, "this is not a tate tsuki, this is a thrust punch " and "this is not a yoko geri, this is a side blade kick ". I knew I would not be getting a traditional, pure lineage experience, but I didn't care: I was getting physical activity, it was a lot like karate (it was basically karate) and they also did sparring, so it's all good. Sadly, after 4 years, the school took a hard turn into McDojo territory. Some of the students, including myself, tried to resist the blatant mcdojo-ization of the school to no avail. The school fully embraced their mcdojo status and it just feels like we're no longer welcome there ("grown ups doing karate?!" "why are you asking all these questions about applicability?!", "bunkai? for this kata I just made out of thin air?! .. errrr I mean, you're not ready for this bunkai"). The straw that broke the camel's back for me was when they stopped having sparring in their classes, unless you go to a "dedicated sparring class" held on Saturday night. I've decided to cut my losses and quit this school, which is now horrible (but it wasn't always this bad). I don't see me starting from scratch again either.... How can I keep my connection to karate by myself?

The issue is that a black belt in one school is very different from a black belt in another school of the same style (let alone a different style!). Sadly there are many black belts out there that should not be a brown belt, a black belt is even more out of the question. But there are also amazing black belts out there who are at a level that most black belts would never reach. I guess the only objective criteria depends on what art we're talking about: non-BJJ arts: "Do you know the curriculum?" If you know all of the kata/poomsae/forms for black belt, you technically fulfill the requirements. BJJ arts: "are you rolling with black belts and holding your own?" (this probably applies to judo too, I am not too sure of how judo grades)

What's the method in your schools? the karate school I went to just taught group class (no private lessons, unless you purchased them, they were seen as an optional extra few people opted into). The kempo school has a private class model in which you get group classes and then a couple private ones too per month. I thought this was A-W-E-S-O-M-E but turns out it does more harm than good. This means curriculum is relegated to said private lessons, and group classes become an exercise into appealing to the lowest common denominator. Kata? No, we can't do that, since we got some white belts. Kihon? Newbies will get bored. Kumite? Newbies will get scared. Let's do some warmup, drills and call it a day *rolls eyes*

This dillema reminds me a bit of the aikido situation. Sticking to tradition renders an art outdated and it becomes more like a cultural practice than anything else, with no ambition of applicability and practical consideration. Where does this leave karate? Many would agree that things such as kata, hikite, the stances, etc are not 100% applicable (would someone train for an MMA fight or a street fight by doing kata and focusing on chambered bunches and horse stance / zenkutsu dachi?) So.... should we get rid of them? I'd say karate already went through the process of doing away with kata, the stances, traditional blocks, hikite, etc. The end result was known as american kickboxing (now largely out of favor, it seems muay thai took its spot) , so in other words... it stopped being karate

I don't understand why social media is taking the place of online communities such as message boards. Message boards give you a sense of privacy and delay (as opposed to immediacy) that social media doesn't give you. I love martial arts, but I don't want to be known as "karate John" to people, if you know what I mean. Plus sometimes I like to read a bunch of messages, think about them for a while, reply and expect an answer in a couple minutes/days/weeks, and not a chat-like immediacy.

I don't know how anyone can say that taekwondo is a 100% korean art that has nothing to do with karate when stuff like this can be observed: a 5000 year old martial art that happens to have some of the very same katas as karate? Hmmm

My reflexions have taken me that path, and I've noticed certain things. These are just theories of mine, but worth a thought.... Karate came from certain chinese martial arts styles brought to okinawa from china. Said chinese styles (I am reluctant to call them 'kung fu" because it's probably quite different from what today's kung fu looks like) were developed based on certain Indian health exercises, correct? We're talking health exercises, not necessarily self defense. It is my understanding that stuff like the 18 hands of lohan were part of those chinese arts that later developed into the kung fu-ish systems brought to okinana. Why is this significant? Take a look: http://qigong15.com/blog/qigong-exercises/18-lohan-hands-qigong-set/ These stances... the second one is pretty much a kiba dachi, the 6th one is pretty much a shiko dachi, the 10th one is pretty much a kokutsu dachi, and the 15th one reminds me a bit of zenkutsu dachi. apparently at some point it all came from india too, right? Take at look at this yoga stuff: https://www.mondaycampaigns.org/destress-monday/add-warrior-yoga-pose-wellness-routine that's a heisoku dachi followed by zenkutsu dachi!!! Yoga even has a horse stance too: http://themostdangerous1.blogspot.com/2016/09/horse-pose-horse-pose-full-power-that.html?m=1 Nobody would think qigong (18 hands of lohan) or yoga are fighting martial arts. But I feel this is where our karate stances came from. So why would we assume the karate stances have an application? I see a lot of very good and very well known karateka like Ian Abernathy or the karate nerd guy talk about stances and coming up with all sorts of rationalizations of why the stances have an application, e.g. 'they're transitional" and things like that. Maybe we're trying to find an application to stuff that doesn't? Maybe the purpose of stances is literally "to strengthen your legs and give you limber limbs" or something like that. just a theory Also, if you want to hear a similar rant, ask me about nukite LOL

You're right, the MA style needs not to be effective to be legit; just the practitioner. The MA is just a thing, and things need someone to demonstrate how effective it works to others, but that thing better be effective, or the breaking down of it is already on the horizon. You won't be effective if all you learn is kata. So it is relevant what style you are learning. Lets be honest, if you would have to bet on one, who would you choose: someone with 3 years of muay thai experience or someone with 5 years of for example tai chi or aikido?So saying that it comes to practicioner is wrong. There are styles that are legitimate but no mater who would practice them and how long would still not effective in a fight. I'd put my money on someone with 8 months experience on boxing or muay thai over someone with 5 years in your average taekwondo, karate, kung fu (any style) or krav maga school, not to mention the aikidos, tai chis, etc of the world. being realistic, many karate and taekwondo schools focus on kihon (or the TKD equivalent), kata (or the TKD equivalent) and point sparring. The schools that have non-point sparring do not necessarily have realistic sparring anyway (hits in the face are not allowed, low contact sparring, no kicks under the belt, etc). With kung fu it's even worse. Sure, many karate schools out there are very good and teach you real fighting, but being honest, these schools are not the norm. It doesn't mean these average karate school isn't legit or real, it's just not a good school.

Interesting. Say joe next door decided to open a TKD school tomorrow. He teaches stuff he learned from playing as kim kaphwan from the SNK videogames and from watching youtube videos. He mostly teaches young kids and plays games and makes them break boards. Can he register with the kukkiwon and be officially recognized as a TKD school? that would be really bad, LOL

great post! the one thing I am not too sure about is that a martial art needs to be effective to be legitimate. I've seen many legit TKD schools that focus on olympics, so the stuff they teach is woefully ineffective.... but they're so legit that your black belt needs to be registered with the kukkiwon. Some kung fu styles would fall in a similar scenario too.

Good question, on that kata part. If you think about it kata is essentially a preset combination drill which are based off of self-defense. Is it traditional because it came first, or did it become traditional overtime? Whose to say that katas you were to hypothetically make up wouldn't be considered traditional overtime? I guess tracing the answer to this is like tracing the answer to bigger, but unrelated, questions. Like, what is karate's ancestor? Ok, it's okinawa-te (shuri-te, etc). Good answer. But what is okinawa te's ancestor? Well, certain kung fu styles that came from china (maybe white crane, incense shop boxing, etc). What is that kung fu's ancestor? maybe the 18 hands of lohan? what is its ancestor? well, some arts that came from India.... you get the idea, if we keep digging deeper and deeper we'd probably never end. My 2 cents: I think the kata were not traditional at first, when they were created in okinawa, for example, maybe anko itosu created the Pinan forms because the original traditional forms ( kusanku and chiang nan) were too long. by the time funakoshi and others brought karate to japan, the traditional kata, such as the pinans were not considered traditional, but they were considered as the standard, the norm, if you will. With the years, these forms became considered traditional. The kata some random guy hypothetically made up would absolutely become traditional if his martial art became popular and widespread and those kata were taught over the years, perhaps for generations. But would that be karate? It all loops back to "what is karate"? my question has quite the practical component.... the case of random guys opening their own dojo or whatever teaching "karate" or "kempo" or simply "martial arts" (some places don't even bother saying which art sometimes!) and changing their kata so they are unique to their own school, a 1-dojo school or maybe a small chain of dojos in a specific city... is it misleading to tell people "I will teach you karate" (or whatever art) when they're actually learning a curriculum no other school in the country or planet will recognize?

bonus question: If I am a 5th degree black belt Goju Ryu black belt (hypothetical) and a 5th degree black belt in taekwondo or kenpo or kempo and I create my own style based on my own philosophy and my made up kata/forms/poomsae, would that style be karate? would it be tkd/kempo/kenpo? It'd be basically impossible to tell, right? "oh look, screaming eagle dojo has Pinan Shodan, it must be karate..." the karate guy will say. But no, "it must be kenpo, since it has 1 pinion", the kenpo guy will say. "Nope! That's taekwondo, it has pyun-ahn 1", the TKD guy will say... and technically the 3 of them would be right.

eeeehhhhhh. What is karate? If I wake up one day, make up my own katas and don't teach any of the traditional katas (e.g. heians/pinans, naihanchi/tekkis, etc), is it even karate? Some may point to lineage, but I am not sure that is the answer. So if a 5th degree black belt in shotokan and goju ryu made his own style, and he just so happens to be the grandson of Funakoshi or something like that, then it would be karate? What if a guy who has never done any karate in his life had made up the same system instead, literally 100% the same thing, then it would not be karate then? This question is not really too theoretical. Why is kyokushin karate considered karate but not taekwondo or tang soo do (this topic is a can of worms, but watch this video and try thinking "this is not karate" : )to muddy the waters even more, isn't the reality of most US-based kempo/kenpo systems (american kenpo, american kempo, kempo 5.0, shaolin kempo, shaolin kenpo, ed parker kempo, kosho ryu kempo, etc) that karate guys took karate and sprinkled a little bit of other arts here and there and voila! You go yourself a new martial art, even though they even teach the pinan katas, slightly modified and renamed as pinion (e.g. 1 pinion, 2 pinion, here is an example: )To answer whether some guy opening "roaring tiger style karate dojo" at the local strip mall, as his own new style is legitimate or not I feel we need to answer what is karate, what is not karate, and whether you can be a karateka and not know any pinan/heian kata, or tekki/naihanchi and other kata like that.

When I was a kid I saw being a white belt as something embarrassing. Not every martial artist has the right mindset for martial arts, especially kids, and some orange or green belts would indeed look down on white belts I felt like I had to get out of white belt as soon as I could, and even yellow belt too. It wasn't until orange belt (following a white-yellow-orange sequence) when I could feel comfortable with my rank and therefore enjoy my dojo experience. I can see how in a western setting people (especially kids) would not want to be a white belt until they reach the equivalent to green or brown belt. It really takes a mature person with the right mindset for marital arts to realize it's ok to be a white belt and that if you choose to get into this journey you will be a "lowly" white belt for so many years, you may have the equivalent knowledge to a green belt but in everybody's eyes, you're just as good or knowledgeable as a dude who has been doing karate for a month. Ironically, having such a mature mindset and clarity comes with... being a martial artist for a while, so it's a bit of a dillema

This article stuck with me: https://sites.google.com/site/internationalkenshikai/articles-on-karate-essentials/interview-with-sensei-john-rakoto

Interesting. How does this affect the curriculum? e.g. maybe you need pinan shodan for yellow, pinan nidan for orange, pinan sandan for green, pinan godan for blue, pinan yondan for purple (just a hypothetical). So now it'd be "pinan shodan, nidan and sandan for green"? We shifted ever so slightly. Since Yellow, Orange, Blue, and Purple were dropped all together, Kata's were moved to the experience levels; beginning, intermediate, and advanced accordingly. Curriculums changes really are quite easy, for the most part. Kata order is unchanged, in that, move this way or that way into their appropriate experience levels. Beginners: Pinan Shodan and Nidan Intermediate: Pinan Sandan, Yondan and Godan Advanced: Naifanchi Shodan, Nidan and Sandan Nice!

Interesting. How does this affect the curriculum? e.g. maybe you need pinan shodan for yellow, pinan nidan for orange, pinan sandan for green, pinan godan for blue, pinan yondan for purple (just a hypothetical). So now it'd be "pinan shodan, nidan and sandan for green"?

I had no done kali as a standalone art. But my dojo offered kali and then a well known kali guy gave a bunch of seminars and since I *used* to like kali (up to the point I went to the seminars, I stopped liking it after the seminars) I went to several of them. My problem with kali is that it's too based in flows. "Oh, I will do A because the other guy will do B, then I will do C because he will do D. Then we will switch round and he will to A because I did B....". Something like this: another problem I have is the sticks aren's such a good weapon, is it? They're sticks alright. They may be easy to move, but they lack weight and power. Imagine the damage a baseball bat can do. A single kali stick strike is not going to do that. sure, the kali stick is supposed to represent a machete... but it's nothing like a machete. machetes are flat and have an edge. Hit something with the side of a machete and it does nothing, but with a stick, you got no way of telling.