RW

I like to explain it with comparisons. Boxing is very effective for combat (martial). So is MMA. But the art aspect isn't there. Now see a kung fu form, a karate kata, etc. See the fluidity and low stances in a kung fu kata, or the deep, low stances with linear strikes and potent linear patterns on your typical shotokan kata. This is the art aspect. You learn to move like a karate guy, or a kung fu guy, or you lean how to kick fast and repeteadly like a taekwondo guy... you're becoming part of a tradition and a very specific way of moving and engaging your entire body in a way very specific to your martial art. You may never use it in combat, but it doesn't matter.. it's art.

Where can I read this study? Anyway, the study is probably right, especially if you consider full contact styles like Kyokushin, or the joint damage that karate positions like zenkutsu dachi and kiba dachi cause. Having said that... my reaction was "so?". If karate cuts 15 years of your life, I bet that having a completely sedentary lifestyle cuts 25 or 20. That's a 5 to 10 year gain then

I have a hard "don't hit women" rule. But here's the thing: Sparring doesn't count as "hitting women". They're simply fellow martial arts students, who signed in for this, who want to spar and train, and who would probably get mad at me for not taking them seriously and/or hindering their training. I am also not hitting them, technically speaking. We're wearing protective gear. Face shots are not allowed. We're not going full contact (e.g. kyokushin style or muay thai match style). This is simply practicing a martial art. As far as partner drills go, we never go 100%, it's more like, 50%, but we also adjust depending on the partner, I mean, you're not going to hit a 70 year old man with the same strength that you would strike a 25 year old, right? Well if it's a woman, it makes sense to adjust too. If it turns out that she can take it and wants more power, so be it, I'll use 50% like I do with guys. About breasts... yes that's an issue. I know by experience they're not that delicate, I've accidentally hit someone in the chest before and she just brushed it off. We also do thai clinch and knee drills with a kick shield and for some reason some women have the kick shield back right in front of their chest (while I am clinching and ready to knee). You can tell that the kick shield is hitting hard against their breasts, but they still keep it there, rather than lowering the shield to their belly or whatever. In the same drill a woman ended kneeing a guy in the groin and... let's just say he went home rather than finishing the class. I'd love to say that woman is clumsy but she hits guys down there fairly often, so I don't know.

From a historical perspective, kata is a living encyclopedia of sorts. At one point in history, not everybody could read and write (and of course, there were no print books or youtube videos ) So how do you pass the knowledge of the moves of your martial art? Well, by teaching them. So you have to teach every strike...every block... every stance... every transition. It's an overwhelming task! Unless you could... integrate several moves, blocks and stances into a sequence? Say you have a sequence where the person turns to the left, does a specific stance and a specific block, then transitions into a different stance and a strike... you just taught 5 things (stance, block, movement, stance, strike) in 2 moves! Welcome to Kata.... the living encyclopedia of martial arts. Bunkai is important, because it puts into context how those moves work too. That's it, in my opinion. I don't think it was meant to teach people how to fight (that's why you spar and drill the techniques) or something like that. Kata is like the encylopedia that teaches you the moves that you'll be using in drills, sparring, etc etc.

I know. Many, many teachers teach this technique against a knife. Many high grade teachers swear by it. But they have never put it to use in real life. If utilized against a novice it may work but the chances are high you get cut. Used against someone with any level of training... well lets just say that will at the very least end up in the hospital with stitches, that's if the attacker is squeamish and stops after seeing your blood. Don't take my word for it. Attend any knife fighting class and you will realize that, blocking in general, against a skilled person with a blade ends in tragedy. Have your Uke attack you at full speed and tell them to make it real. Use a lower grade with little experience, give them a marker, and just see what happens. I think you'll be surprised how many times they tag you. Don't wear your nice new Gi. To be honest I was taught the same thing but after my time in the Corps and studying under a Filipino knife fighter I was able to convince my Shinshii to remove these techniques. If you block an experienced knife fighter they will rip back as soon as they experience resistance and both of your arms/hands will be shredded. Hard to defend yourself at that point. I agree with you. I've tried to make my sensei remove these techniques to no avail. But the question is... what should we be doing instead of blocking? (other than running away )

Lol!!!

hahaha

I've found that some schools of some styles have so many katas because they have a "1 kata per belt/grade test" philosophy. Personally I think it's far more important to master a few katas (say, 5 katas from white to black belt) to the point you can do them without even thinking about the moves, you should know the kata by heart, basically muscle memory, with a deep understanding of the kata's body mechanics and applications. Instead people rush to learn a new kata once they test for a new belt, and learn it in time for the new belt, the "old" kata getting put in the back burner

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Hint: Videogame related: 風 火 林 山

It could have to do with the rising popularity of MMA too. I wonder how full would the seminars of whoever is the new UFC flavor of the month be?

I know it's just training, I know there's a method, etc etc, but, I don't feel ANY traditional martial art is a particularly effective way to learn how to fight. Sure, you're walking in forward foot stances, making sure your foot touches your other foot before you take the next step, with a perfect stance, you've practiced 500 punches from horse stance a day, and you have an impressive backwards-step transition followed by an amazing nukite finger strike. The only problem is you don't do zenkutsu dachi (forward foot stance), chambered punches from horse stance and kokutsu dachi (backwards stance) nukites in a real fight. I have yet to see ANYONE use a nukite in an MMA match or in a bar fight, and there is a reason for that: you'd break your fingers at least half the time. I do martial arts because I enjoy them, and they are a good way to stay active, exercise, socialize in a different setting and a well peformed kata has a very therapeutic aspect to it, some people call it moving meditation for a reason. I might get self defense benefits from my art as well, it's certainly made me a better fighter than if I never practiced any martial art, but I won't fool myself into thinking it's as good for that as boxing or muay thai are. At the same time though, I don't want to learn silly stuff or mcdojo stuff, and I do take my training seriously.

Easy: http://brutalgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UndisputedStreetFighterSamplePage02.jpg Huhu yoga flame!! I misheard all of their movies when I was a kid. Yoga fire = "blow my fire!" hadoken = "a boo cat" sonic boom = "alec, who?" tiger uppercut = "hyper uppercut!"

Easy: http://brutalgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UndisputedStreetFighterSamplePage02.jpg

Where can I read more about this or see some videos?

I'd defer to somebody who knows more about kung fu, but I can't help having the impression he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag

This is a common argument used to support the claim for the need to train full contact. It is also fundamentally flawed. Allow me to explain why. If the first time you ever get hit hard, it is in the controlled environment of training, then that can only mean that you've never been hit hard in a real confrontation. If you've never been hit hard in a real confrontation, then with respect, any notion of what it's like to be hit hard in a real confrontation and how one would react is pure theory. Someone who has never been hit hard in a real confrontation, by definition, does not have the experience needed to understand how they might react to being hit hard in a real confrontation. If training for self defence, training full contact is not ideal for another reason. You train to minimise the risk of someone knacking you by, having someone knack you. You train to mitigate the risk of a stronger opponent possibly punching you in the head and rattling your brain, a very remote possibility if you know how to avoid trouble, by actually going to a place on a regular basis and actually volunteering to have someone try their very best to punch your head and rattle your brain. Some folks want to train full contact. Each to their own. The information about risks is widely available so they can make an informed decision. But its illogical to do it for self defense. One Kick Wonder, you are discussing things in circles here. If I understand you correctly you are saying that he only way to truly prepare for an attack on the street is to go out and get attacked on the street. Not quite. What I'm saying is that training full contact is nothing like being attacked in the street. The only way anyone can ever know what it's like to be attacked in the street is if that's happened to them. That's not to say that folks should go out and look for trouble. That would be silly. Then you will understand the flaw in the full contact argument better than most. You say that the only way to prepare for being punched really hard is to have someone punch you really hard. But I bet you wouldn't say to your young recruits that the best way to prepare for a determined foe trying their very best to kill you with machine guns and grenades is to go somewhere and have someone fire machine guns and grenades at you with live ammo so you know what it feels like. There is a difference. If you're shot you're done. If you're tagged in the face once, you may still be in the fight. Do you remember the Brock Lesnar vs Cain Velazquez fight? Brock got tagged in the face once and he freaked out, trying to run away, ended spinning like a helicopter, cried and then got KO'd. Turns out Brock didn't know what being punched is like. It is NOT recommended to get punched in the face whilst training, but you do have to experience high impact and some pain from time to time just so you can get the grit necessary to power though them in a fight shall the need arise.

Does a boxer only throw a jab one way? NO! Do you only evade a strike one way? NO! I might be saying the same thing as others only in a different way but I'm going to try my best to explain Tichiki to you. If by literal you mean the way the Kata is perceived (the way it looks) and in the pattern it is performed... NO it is not literal! You will never be attacked in that exact pattern. Further more the way it looks (perceived as to its meaning) is not literal either. Most perceive the Kata to be nothing more than strikes, kicks and blocks. This is not the case. A specific posture can be a strike or kick but not all are. To put everything into this box ignores the other elements of the art that the founders put into the Kata that make it effective in combat. The applications (Tichiki or what some incorrectly call Bunkai) come from the individual postures or a sequence of postures. Each posture or sequence represents one or more applications from one or more of the elements that make up your art. Lets take a basic Kata, say the beginning movements of Pinan Shodan. There are three distinct postures in a sequence in the beginning of this Kata. The sequence represents several scenarios of applications and encompasses Tuidi, Atemi, Chibudi and Muto. If confused the first posture is an augmented (we'll call them blocks and use English so as to be clear) right upper block with left outside upper block, then a right palm up punch as you bring the left to the right shoulder crossing over the right arm, and finally chambering the right as you perform a left lower block. If you take the Kata literally this makes no sense in terms of actual combat. It's what the postures actually represent rather than what they are perceived to be that make sense and are combat effective. I've explained a few of these in other posts so I will not go into writing another novel here in writing out different applications to each posture in a given Kata. Now that was the sequence represented but each of those postures represents applications within themselves. Each posture (move, stance, whatever you call it) represents one or more battle proven applications. Each application will contain one or more of the elements of the art. If you look at Kata as punch, block and kick, you're right, they should not be taken literally. Now, how do you practice the applications? Are they useless because you only train with a specific attack on a set angle? Again I ask, does a boxer only throw a jab one way and at one set angle? NO! You learn the applications in a slow methodical method where your partner is compliant. This in the beginning must be the way as you must develop the proper body mechanics, understanding of depth, distance, understanding of the what, how and why. One the student has the fundamentals down the game changes and the opponent no longer is so compliant. The angles of attach change, the speed and force changes, the opponent tries to thwart your attempts at countering or applying the applications. This is done in a progression so that the student can develop and it becomes second nature. To say that all strikes or kicks will come at a set angle is folly and foolish. We teach the foundation. The student must learn to adapt that and make it work. This is done by doing it over and over under different conditions with different opponents. This is also true in the fact that the student builds a greater understanding and with that understanding can draw upon and create their own from the knowledge they have been taught. They can also discover other meanings of the postures. Side Bar - [applications are not an individual shadow boxing event. It requires two people. In order for the student to learn you have to have contact. You (at least in my personal opinion) can not learn these alone] This, as in all combat arts, is an individual journey. The student vets what works and what doesn't. There is nothing set. To say that an application or the way you perform it is set is not accurate. In combat nothing is set. To make the assumption that the founders (battle tested warriors) created set parameters that can not be adapted is ludicrous. Yes angles change. No two people will kick you at the same angle, with the same speed or force. You must take the knowledge and adapt it to work. This is why we have a progression that leads to actual pressure testing in which the student has to create based on his knowledge of the art. The applications give the student a multitude of choice far beyond what they can learn through Kumite alone. The argument comes up quite often that traditional arts are no good for combat. That combat sports arts are the only answers to real combat. I might point out that all singular practitioners of these arts have been bested. No one art is THE BEST in terms of combat. Tudi (Karate) as it was taught prior to modernization and as it is still taught in some arts is a combat art. If you understand the art and how to utilize it, it's as effective as any other. You notice I did not say better as some do. To explain in writing how to study the Kata and it's applications and how to use them, not to mention the multitude of scenarios is very difficult without writing a real novel. My advice to you before dismissing them as ineffective is to find a teacher that understands and knows them and more importantly understands how to teach them. The secret that many do not want to know or understand is that this is not an over night, learn them and presto your able to fight. With anything it takes time and is definitely not an over night, one class type of thing. You can learn basics (Kihon). You can be taught how to punch and pick it up fairly quickly. Learning when to and how, where to, and to put that together with other techniques, that is where Tickiki and the Kata come into play. I hope this rushed explanation answers a few questions. I hate to hear students say that something is useless or not efficient without a true understanding of what it actually is. I am a bit conflicted about this. Nobody punches others karate style in real life, or even in sparring ( ), so, how do all of the ippon kumite drills prepare us to defend a "regular" punch or a haymaker? In a kata bunkai you're usually defending oi tsukis, palm strikes (same idea, zenkutsudachi), etc. I haven't seen a kata with a bunkai about jabs, cross, uppercuts, haymakers, etc.

Do you spare like this in the ring? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6uEnFy7zF4 No body said kata is literal. Kata is abstract. I'm with you, we agree

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment. Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical. Why?? Our lives depend on it each and every time!! The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it. What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds. Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!! I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!! How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity? Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not. As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too. The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with. It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised. To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train. IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ. When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it. But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!" No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal. That's exactly what several karate folks here and telling us. They are saying that kata and their bunkai are literal. I thought they meant that in the sense of "that age uke is actually an age uke"

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment. Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical. Why?? Our lives depend on it each and every time!! The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it. What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds. Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!! I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!! How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity? Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not. As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too. The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with. It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised. To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train. IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ. When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it. But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!" No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

Yes!! Why?? It's part of the methodology, and the starting point of the syllabus/curriculum. Any system has to have a starting point to be considered as well as for it to grow. However, the effectiveness must be harshly tested thoroughly and without any ambiguity whatsoever. Imho. How? I can practice blocking a mid section front kick and countering with a punch as many times as I like. Then tell myself I've proven that application to be effective. Then it all falls apart the first time a real attacker kicks from a different angle or throws a punch first or is stronger and faster than me. If we take kata literally, we can't possibly test their effectiveness. Kata is orderly, violence is not. I think here is where we have to see the art's practice in its totality. Kihon, Kata, Kumite. Kihon: You practice mid section blocks to the air. Basically, you get the motion and muscle memory down, it's sort of like "wax on, wax off, Daniel San". Kata: You incorporate said mid section block with a series of other moves and stances. You're using said move in a context of other moves and movements. You learn a bunkai that will teach you conceptually (not practically, big difference) that when a foot is coming to your belly, you move it out of the way with said block. Kumite: Free sparring, application of the concept in a chaotic, not predetermined fashion. This is your application and stress testing. To these 3 K methods (kihon, kata, kumite) I'd add the drills. Different arts give it different names. Some karate schools call them Ippon Kumite. Some kempo schools call them defensive maneuvers or combinations. This is where some guy tries to punch you and actually make contact and you're supposed to use said technique (in this case, the mid block) to defend yourself. This ippon kumite bridges the gap between kata (predetermined, mostly done vs the air) and kumite (not predetermined, contact is expected, there's a resisting opponent).

I feel that the context and purpose of kata has been misunderstood. Some martial arts were developed back when not everybody could read or write. And back then there were no youtube videos So how do you pass a fighting style generation by generation? Well, you learn the moves. But how do you know you're remembering them all? You have to learn moves, stances, ways to move from point A to point B... what do you do? Well, you turn them into a kata! A kata is like an encyclopedia entry about its martial art. "Shotokan karate has age ukes, shuto ukes, tsukis,zen kutsu dachi positions and.. etc etc" Bunkai is important in the sense that it will remind you that the age ukes you are doing to the are are supposed to block a yodan tsuki coming at you, or that the 4 shuto moves in the end of your kata are knife hand blocks blocking a strike, and not a shuto uchi. Knowing the bunkai won't automatically make you competent on its moves, that's more well suited for a drill, where somebody punches you full speed and you try to pull off a specific block or counter strike, so for example, doing a yodan age uke block in a bunkai is good, but practicing said yodan age uke a 1000 times vs an incoming tsuki in ippon kumite will get you the practice you need, the bunkai was just the form to pass down that knowledge.

That’s a huge thing for me, in a sense. If I absolutely had to narrow down one reason alone for restarting karate and staying with it, it would be for the stress relief. When I’m there, the outside world doesn’t exist for an hour and a half. Going through the movements, I can’t think about anything but what I’m doing right then and there. And if I could let the outside world in, it would end during sparring. There’s no time to think about work when someone’s punching at your stomach. There’s no time to think of family issues when someone’s kicking at your head. It’s moving meditation. It’s inner peace through violence This is probably my favorite part of karate... a well practiced kata truly is like moving meditation

What's you style again? Still TSD? TKD? I have a feeling that most traditional martial arts aren't that geared towards self defense. You learn how to drive by driving. You learn how to swim by swimming. You learn how to fight by... fighting. The problem is you also learn how to get brain damage, broken noses and black eyes by fighting, so it's a bad payoff. Some people will get as close as they can to the real deal in order to be good fighters: We're talking full contact boxing or muay thai or MMA here. Some will want to be a bit further from that, perhaps something like Kyokushin Karate (which has no face shots). Some of us will be even further away from that, by practicing something like other non-full contact karate styles. Then some people may veer even further away from that and go the TKD or traditional kung fu route. You've gone through the same mental process I've gone with my art (kempo), even though I do expect to get some self defense benefits as a bonus (sort of like how "wax on, wax off" was actually practicing blocks LOL). I think most TMA instructors fully expect to have a number of students that are only practicing their art for fitness or recreational purposes, and they'd not get upset about it unless the practitioner is being disrespectful or not taking the art seriously.