RW

Osu phoenixzion. I'm very much in agreement with what you wrote regarding Kata. For the longest time, I looked down on Kata (not having studied karate) and always saw sparring as something much more beneficial. Having recently picked up Kyokushin, I have to say that Kata is the essence of Karate. It's not only fantastic for learning techniques but also for hardening the spirit and I find myself practicing the few I know for hours on my resting days from training. This, for me, is unusual, as I'm training 5 days a week To the OP. I haven't done full contact sparring yet- but did lots of semi contact in my Muay Thai days. I will though (as is inevitable with Kyokushin) and I look forward to it because I seek to push my body to it's limits and go beyond- One of the reasons I love Kyokushin So you went from Muay Thai to Kyokushin? Whick kind of kicking do you prefer? (MT shin kicks vs Kyokushin chambered, instep kicks). Which one do you feel is more applicable for combat? Hi. Yes I did go from Muay Thai to Kyokushin. I have to admit, I'm not a huge fan of the kicks in karate which require you to make a 'flicking' action from the knee, but personally, but my Hanshi allows me to throw shin kicks and encourages everyone else to do so. Whilst you're able to attack with greater power through shin kicks with less risk of hurting yourself, Instep kicks serve their own purpose, as they allow you to attack from a slightly further distance. If you're asking me if I feel Kyokushin is more combat applicable than Muay Thai (or vice versa), to be honest, I couldn't answer that. Not because I'm trying to be polite, but rather because they both share many similarities in the techniques they offer and in that they require a similar level of discipline, focus and conditioning from their fighters (all of which contribute towards combat effectiveness). I found your response very informative. Thanks!

So, kumite = distance, timing, reaction kata = conditioning Is this right? Did I miss any (self defense) benefits that come from either?

Osu phoenixzion. I'm very much in agreement with what you wrote regarding Kata. For the longest time, I looked down on Kata (not having studied karate) and always saw sparring as something much more beneficial. Having recently picked up Kyokushin, I have to say that Kata is the essence of Karate. It's not only fantastic for learning techniques but also for hardening the spirit and I find myself practicing the few I know for hours on my resting days from training. This, for me, is unusual, as I'm training 5 days a week To the OP. I haven't done full contact sparring yet- but did lots of semi contact in my Muay Thai days. I will though (as is inevitable with Kyokushin) and I look forward to it because I seek to push my body to it's limits and go beyond- One of the reasons I love Kyokushin So you went from Muay Thai to Kyokushin? Whick kind of kicking do you prefer? (MT shin kicks vs Kyokushin chambered, instep kicks). Which one do you feel is more applicable for combat?

So true! I remember seeing guys in kumite retract their hands and chamber them really dramatically after connecting a point (while doing a kiai to impress (the judges, yeah). In some more extreme cases, they also celebrate their point before it was even awarded (they usually go like "yes!" or raise both arms in victory). I see the celebration thing more in taekwondo matches though. Funny enough, sometimes this drama is counterproductive in kumite, since the judge maybe didn't see the point... so the match keeps going and the guy doesn't defend

How often has a real karate practitioner fought a wrestler, under fair conditions, both unarmed? In the UFC and other MMA contests (not a real fight, by the way, they got rules) fighters use gloves. A wrestler will often choose to take a jab or maybe even a straight punch to the face in order to shoot and takedown. In real life, one of those strikes would be much more devastating. Also, wrestlers in MMA competitions cross-train other arts, so it is a sure thing that they're familiar with giving and receiving strikes. A pure wrestler will not know how to react so well to a flurry of kicks and punches. Now, a wrestler that has cross trained any striking martial art... now that's a whole different issue. The karate person would have to cross-train wrestling or any grappling-based martial art in order to level the field... wasn't this how MMA were born, anyway?

I also feel that some karate schools have destroyed the utility of kata, and dilluted the concept of what a kata is. I've seen countless times people do shuto-uke defenses in competitive kata by extending their hands rrrreeeeaaaallllllyyyyy slllooowwwlllyyyy, sometimes even making the forearm and hand "shake" like when somebody is trying to lift too much weight, while groanting and exhailing really loud, making a "I'm going to kill you" face. Then the judges all get impressed and score them big points. How is this helping how to fight in any way, shape or form? What about people who pull a really strong punch, that ripples the Gi, while they scream "KKKIIIAAAAAAAIIIIII" while they make a funny facial expression with WIDE eyes and showing all their teeth? I'd like to see them win a fight. (By the way, I see this kind of people win trophies in kata competitions really frequently) This over-worked theatricality hurts kata's ability to help with fighting skills. And then, there's this whole "creative kata" concept that I dislike so much. A karate teacher chooses a "special student" (teacher's pet, or guy who pays a lot in whatever, or guy who doesn't go to school enough -lol- or whatever) and teaches him/her a choreography, full of super-flashy 360 degree spin kicks, air somersaults, cartwheels and "tippy tappy" kicks (like that move where the student does a quick low mawashi geri, then a mid one, then a super high one, without ever putting his leg down and without actually generating that much strength.). Sometimes these creative katas are accompained by music, usually the mortal kombat theme song, or a "clever" remix where you hear "and now, a taste for things to come.." and then the mortal kombat music explodes, with the volume set to super-high. As you might have guessed, the student with the most somersaults, cartwheels, lightining-quick tippy tappy kicks and dancy moves scores big points with the judges. How exactly does "creative kata" help anything? Also,at least in my experience, the little "stars" that win in "creative kata" and/or overdramatic traditional katas are usually the ones who don't do that well in sparring (even point sparring). Of course, these hideous practices have nothing to do with the realistic, traditional kata that people also practice, the kind of kata that you guys practice.

Do you have a link to the video? I've been looking for it for a while...

likeke34 and gary, thanks for the recommendation guys, I'll check it out!

I used to have that book! It's quite good.. I loved it.

It's better than no MA teaching but... (and take everything I say lightly, because I have no kids, so I got no idea of what I'm talking about ) Karate is also about the competition. Trying to defeat the kid in front of you (score more points, or hit him more times, or even do a kata better than him). The kid in front of him is an "opposing force" (even if it's in a sporty, friendly, camaraderie-filled atmosphere). Your son would be able to practice his newly acquired skills with different kids with different skillsets and profiles. When he's practicing with his father, he will acquire skills and techniques (probably even better than in a dojo, since he will be getting 100% of the attention, all the time!), but he will lack the whole "opposing person" experience. I guess that private teaching (by you) and dojo would complement each other nicely. If that is not an option for the reasons you stated, I see nothing wrong with you teaching him karate, except for the fact that he will lack the competition aspect I mentioned before and that he'd not get an "official" belt...

(Sideways guard), step back, make the opponent advance towards you, then catch him with a yoko geri. If he isn't hit by it, it will open space for a haito attach to the side of the head.

My little nephew wants to start "practicing" Karate by himself. I already told him that it is a TERRIBLE idea, because: 1) You can't learn karate from a book 2) You need to combat (spar) with someone else to develop the reflexes and instincts 3) Some don't even consider Karate that good for self defense (I don't agree with that), so imagine getting that from a book... to which he replied that he doesn't care about the self-defense aspect, so that's ok. As you know I practice shotokan myself, but he isn't sold to any style in particular. He will practice Karate anyway, with out without my approval (I tried to convince him to take real classes, anywhere), by learning the katas and practicing the techniques in a punching bag. So I figured, I might as well recommend him a good book that will teach him how to do the techniques correctly (especially the kicks!) so he doesn't hurt himself (keep in mind he will be kicking/punching the heavy bag). Any kata content would be a bonus. What book should I recommend him? Thanks

Link? (To your article)

You can be a good talker but a bad singer I'm not even sure I'm what you would call a "good" talker. I can cuss like a sailor, though....does that count for something? Ahh! Lots of "kiai" I see

I've been meaning to read the Silmarillion for a long time!!! I didn't know about the part of creating the universe through music. Now I definitely have to read it.

So . . . - Would you say, RW, that if we extend what you've said about a conversation (real fighting) going wrong, it's like having an argument? - While kumite, which has rules, is like formal debate, which also has rules? - And kata is as a song whose words are carefully chosen, expected to be pondered, and meant to convey a message?I like the analogy; you obviously gave it a lot of thought. I just wanted to go with the flow of it. Yup! I came up with the analogy because I was singing a song in a different language that I don't speak, whiel following the lyrics (and translation) in youtube. I realized I could actually sing the song now without looking at the lyris, and I even knew the words and meaning of the song... but that doesn't mean I can speak the language

You can be a good talker but a bad singer

Imagine for a minute that fighting is the same as talking. You could equate fighting (real fighting) to a conversation: You can talk about anything, there are no rules to the conversation and if you don't know the language, well... the conversation will go wrong. Kumite in its different variants is like those conversation drills you get in language classes: You talk to someone else, about a topic you agreed on, and there are some rules to that prefabricated conversations. Yes, you can probably use your conversation-drills to learn how to speak a language. Kata is... like learning the lyrics of a song. You will sing a pre-arranged sequence of words, with some rhythm to it, and with a high emphasis on flow, beauty and aesthetics. Yes, you will learn the words and you may get a great pronunciation. In some ways, there is more to the analogy, for instance, a kata is a fight with an imaginary enemy (or enemies), while a song is a conversation with an imaginary person (or persons). But learning to sing some songs won't teach you a language... What do you think of my analogy? Sure, it may not be PERFECT, but I thought it's pretty cool...

I bought this book a good 10 years ago... it's pretty good!

"Setup" with a kick to their leg, immediately follow up with a straight punch to the face. The kick itself is hard and damaging, but it is merely to make them drop their guard (whether the kick succeeded or not) and/or get distracted so I can clock them in the face. My other signature move is simply a side kick with my front leg when I am standing sideways, TKD style (funny, my style is shotokan, but I sparr with a sideways position a lot)

it depends on your expectations from the class you're taking: Did you take that MA to lose weight or stay in shape/health? In that case well, of course you'll try to break the fight... you're not expecting to receive self-defense skills from the class. If you actually joined the class to learn to fight and the sensei told you he could teach you that, then that's different. However, that's where my philosophy comes to mind: A great teacher does not need to be great at that to teach it, he/she just needs to have been great at it in the past. Take boxing, for example, boxing coaches may not be able to hold themselves in a fight anymore. Some are old and out of shape (think of rocky's coach as an example of the stereotype). But in their prime, they were good. It might be the same case with a sensei, he can be older, out of shape, etc, especially since he'd most likely be fighting a thug. If he can't hold himself in a fight NOW it doesn't mean he couldn't in the past. I guess you have to look at a sensei's credentials instead. If the dude was never good at fighting, then that's different (think of a taekwondo teacher that can teach you chamber punches and fast snap kicks WTF style but he never had experience out of that... would you trust him your self defense?)

I was wondering, what does a blackbelt mean? More like, what does it represent? Some schools will give you a black belt if you train long enough. Others (think BJJ) will only give it to you if you beat some people. To some, it is the ultimate goal ("I got a black belt! The LAST belt!) to some it is only the begginig ("now I can begin training seriously"). Does having a BB mean you can hold yourself in a fight? I've seen many worthless black belts (and I have also seen many black or green belts than could beat me up silly without breaking a sweat). What makes people think that having a BB qualifies someone to teach karate? I'm not questioning BB's, I'm just curious about what they mean to people nowadays... I can't help to remember how in the 80's having an Amex GOLD card was a sign of prestige and wealth. Now Amex gold cards don't mean much at all...

Why'd you end quitting boxing and joining shotokan? Just curious

What book is that? What did it say? I did the mistake of buying Hatmaker's "kicking bible"... he spends quite a bit of time ripping on Eastern MA's.

HAHAHAHA this made me laugh so much