Wa-No-Michi

I suppose though, in order to answer that question, you have to define the criteria that makes a good martial artist. Or more importantly what you as an individual define as important. WNM

I am with DWX here really. I have no reason to believe that Bruce Lee wasn't an exceptional martial artist and a great athlete, but there are a number of martial artists that I would put on a pedestal before him. WNM

The thing about grades is that in most cases they are awarded by schools or associations, so they are only relative / applicable within said issueing group. You can get internationally recognised grades - A former student of mine was graded to Sandan by the WKF (World Karate Federation). The Japan Karate Federation also conduct gradings. As far as ability / vs accademic grade, well this is an old chestnut as basically it is not always the case that one leads to another . WNM

I haven't, but then I think it is tough eneough to absorb the key nine katas of my style - and the principles contained in them - let alone trying to invent even more. I am sure this has it learning merits, but personaly I would rather spend the time expanding upon the the bits of my kata that were delibereatly left "lose" in order to play with the finer wado principles and dovetail them into your Kumite (be that Yakusoku, Ohyo, Kihon, Jiyu etc.) Just my thoughts. WNM

Hi sensei8, Yep hips are absolutely key... as is biomechanical structure, good kenetic linkage, movement and focus (or "snap" if you like) etc., etc.. In isolation however, they become less powerful. They key to the generating of the op's "snap" he is seeking IMO is in the timing of all of these facets - Kime?? WNM

Hi wouldbemaster, On reflection, the way I phrased the opening part of my last post comes across a little rude. I should not have brought grade into it (if only for the reason that it is irrelevant compared to experience), it was just my clumsy attempt to establish whether you had trained in Kihon Kumite / Kumite Gata - as a way to help the discussion point along - particularly when you consider there are limited Wado-ka who contribute to this board. I think the question was asked about stance, I said I thought it looked liked Kumite Gata type of movement similar to KK #1 for which the stance is Seishan-dachi "ish". (Or at least Suzuki Sensei suggests it is this stance and for the lack of another name it seems to work for me). As for the directionality of the movement - if we take the second move that Tori performs in KK#1 for example, I see the embusen as a "flattened triangle" Is this similar to the movement you would train in? WNM

Hi Shori, You are probably right, although I never said that boxers were flat footed?? And agreed their footwork is awesome but its kinda "their" footwork if you know what I mean... Works for them. I will stand corrected here, but it is my understanding, that the objective of boxing is to "incapacitate" your opponent by striking them with you fists. In the modern forum, that refers to fists quite heavily padded, but nonetheless, they key point is to continuously strike someone (with your hands) to the point they are no longer able to continue. Whilst this has its merits, it isn't karate IMO. You mention transition... Now we are getting somewhere.. WNM

I am really hoping that Shizentai will continue to contribute here, as her thoughts were right on the money as far as I could see. Would also be good maybe if Killer could chime in. Particularly after his good thread on breathing. Who knows, along with the other tradition Karate-ka on this board, we could actually get a "genuine" Karate thread going here. No offense to the likes of tg and Bushi who's views would always be welcome of course, but they got their own playgrounds have fun in me thinks ? WNM

Or even correct Japanese Maybe when you say Kota you mean "Kote" which mean the wrist in Japanese MA. "Sasae uke" is sometimes used as a term to refer to a supported / augmented block. Could be the schools way of describing a block that is re-inforced at the wrist by the other hand??? WNM

I don't think Brian was referring to anything "singularly," Michi, but to what the OP was asking. I like this video (link below) by Bas Rutten on the boxing aspect (but I'd just call it the punching aspect) of MMA, and the stance he refers to as different from the boxer's stance, in that he has to keep his legs useful as weapons--and defendable against attack as well. I think that what he says does have its applications to karate. The URL is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_gq3s3FMsg Thanks for the link, Joe. It shall come in handy... WNM, when I talk about punching "from the ground up," it doesn't mean that one is rooted deeply into the ground, lacking mobility. Nor does it mean that every punch is "one-hit wonder." Although Bas's stance tends to be a bit more flat-footed than what I would use, at about 2:50 in the link above, you can see what I am talking about when I "punch from the ground up." Using the feet to pivot and drive the punches is a big key in developing power, yet one can still stay mobile and evasive. Boxing itself isn't a powerhouse type of art, I would say....just look at the jab, the core punch of Boxing. It isn't used to knock anyone out. Its the strategy shaper of the style. I think that Boxing and Karate might share more here than they do not. I have no argument with Mr Rutten either (thank goodness), however I see karate movement as being slightly different to boxing - mainly because of the combined use of the greater variety of techniques that are in karate. In boxing the only weapons you have are your hands, so the use of movement and its extent is limited to what you are able to do with your hands. Factor into this the facts that these guys are wearing gloves to take the sting out the punch, and they are conditioned to receive these blows - this in turn drives a requirement for the boxer to develop even more powerful punches – and thus the cycle continues. Martial arts like Karate on the other hand, not only use all of the limbs they use all viable parts of said limbs to make contact with any accessible areas of the opponent, the more vulnerable the better. These can these be used in any combination - in any given direction (as it is not governed so much by the squared or octagonal rings of boxing / MMA). In Kumite I don't usually work on the basis of trying to stop someone with a singular technique, rather I use renraku (combination techniques). So... whilst I am agreeing with all here that one should have good Kentic linkage to the floor at the point of impact of each technique used in the combo, it does not need to mean that you have stopped moving ie toward your next technique, which could be a kick for example. On the point of just how much power one needs to generate, and therefore just how "Kinetically linked" to the floor you need to be, I remember my sensei giving us a pep talk on some of the finer points of our close quarter fighting sets we have called Kihon Kumite. These contain aspects of Atemi Jujutsu (or striking Jujutsu). The stances are very high, and very difficult to generate a lot of power from easily – to the new to them, and uninitiated, they appear quite unstable. A Junior student who was quite new to them asked him why there wasn’t more power behind them, to which my Sensei answered “because there doesn't need to be”. Seeing that the student was still not convinced he paired with him and at the point of delivering the strike in question, he proceeded to give the student the slightest of taps in the testicles... This was enough to completely unbalance the 1st Dan and the next thing he knew, he was on the floor looking up at the instructor. Motto of the story here was you don't have to hit people - a) very hard to and to hurt them and - b) very hard to throw them (mentally I mean), as long as you hit them with the correct technique in the right place the right way. The latter can then be followed up a rapid succession of techniques – all in the movement my friends. Trust me. WNM

Hi Shizentai, I don't think I misunderstood your post, it was quite clear. I have no argument with Isaac, and agree that "kinetic linking" (nice phrase by the way ) is very important at the point of making contact with your opponent. However there is more than one way to accelerate ones mass forward prior to the point of impact me thinks. Watch a toddler when he is learning to walk, and he does not appear to push himself forward from the ground up, rather he seems to fall into the movement and then his feet will catch up. Also, in Karate kumite, gyakuzukis (reverse punches) are more usually performed with the back heel off the floor. We refer to the "cutting in of the front hip" at this stage in order to accelerate the technique forward. Effectively pulling in from the front leg, rather than pushing off the back. There are no "absolutes" in karate, but there are alternatives and sometimes these are difficult to see - or maybe just not that obvious. [edit] and of course, all governed by the same Newtonian laws. Just for the record, I totally 100% disagree with the idea that this is just a training thing, but I've already explained why so I won't go into it. You may disagree with me and you are entitled to your opinion, but actually I don't think we are too far apart from each other on this one either. The "polar opposites" should be trained in karate for a reason... so that the principles inherent to them become instinctive / second nature in feeling and ability. As I say these principles will eventually become subsumed into your karate ultimately allowing your karate to work in concert , not conflict - when it comes to application. WNM

Upon re-reading the last line of my post, I feel I have not gotten my point over clearly. The "polar opposites" as Shizentai refers to, do play an important part of you karate training ie; fast, slow, tensed, relaxed etc., but...these are training apparatus. They are ways to train ourselves how to be in total control of our bodies. Application is the next step... perhaps WNM

Not an argument Shizentai, just an informed discussion I would say that a punch can and probably should stay relaxed through the point of impact as well. The action of tensing muscle groups should typically be done at the end of the technique (on its return journey after it has travelled through the target), this is more to do with protecting from hyper-extension rather than generating power. If you think about it, the action of "tensing" involves engaging different muscle groups in opposite directions...to work against each other. How can that add power to a punch? It all should be fluid imo, as the moment you root, as the word suggests, you are stuck - even if for a split second. Personally, I never like the analogy of pushing a punch as if you were pushing a car up a hill, as for me it seems to suggest that most of your energy is going backward/into the ground, before you have even come into contact with anything. I prefer to think of pulling rather than pushing, but I would concur that no matter what approach you have, your stance has to be stable. Creating polar opposites has its place in your karate training (ie dynamic tension vs fluid movement) but it takes years of training to subsume this understanding in your training... outside of this it adds conflict in my opinion. I agree that karate training at certain levels is about rules and contradictions to them (as part of the training structure of the school), but martial arts like karate have to be functional IMO, and if there is conflict in how to make them work properly there is a risk they will let you down should you need them (god forbid). See Shizentai, no argument just good discussion - WNM

I agree. Power comes from the ground, up through the legs, through the hips, then into the upper body, shoulders, and out through the arms. Also, punching the air will only take you so far. Get to a bag, and work on it there, too. The resistance that a bag provides will help to build strength in technique. If you have access to someone that is skilled in the use of the makiwara, this can be beneficial as well. This kind of "power up from the ground" thinking has more in keeping with boxing than it does with Karate imo. Don't get me wrong it has its place, but karate is not "singularly" a one hit power house type art. What of "Atemi" and the softening of an opponent leading to kuzushi? Key imo, is to use the centre of mas correctly, but importantly to compliment this with speed, targeting and power through correct form. Rooting yourself to the floor to generate power may be good for weight lifters, but in truth makes you "stuck" as a fighter. Fluid movement is the key to power. IMO Ask your sensei about Kime - this will enlighten you greatly. WNM

Hi Killer, Very interesting. For me, if you look at "renraku" in its literal interpretation, it means to relay/exchange between one technique into another. I would view all of the examples you give as viable stages both training wise but also application. TBH though, at where I am now, "Example 2" seems more probable; particularly if (using your words) "." also = to withdraw of technique. This action seems to allow an expansion of the lungs, along with the completion of correct form - at gyakuzuki point. That said, nothing is set in stone so, if you don't fully pull back the reverse punch, but rather allow its kinetic energy to flow into the next technique then option 3 would be my choice. Option 4 is more about selection of technique and granted one shouldn't become "stuck". But, keeping within the exercise we are discussing, its about how you engender correct breathing without thinking about it... Maybe? WNM

Can I ask how the breathing (inhale : exhale) would be timed at the point of performing the indiviual techniques during a renraku waza (combination set peice) drill for example. IE snap punch head off the leading hand (fast) quickly followed by reverse punch and then round house kick off the back leg. Would you inhale and exhale at the kime point of each individual technique, or would say two techniques in rapid succession be done on the same exhale but in two halves if that makes sense? WNM

Hi wouldbemaster, I see you are a Wado-ka, what grade are you and have you practiced Kihon Kumite yet? If you have, chances are you are familiar with the workings of them and the principles of Nagashi. My understanding is that the word Nagashi refers to the flow of a stream and its movement around a solid object (ie a rock?) found in its path. It can't push it away, so finds a close natural flow around it whilst always staying on its intended course. In other words, it is allowing the "unstoppable" forward energy of an opponent’s attack to take its course, evading this with the minimum of movement and then using the attackers (continuing) forward moving inertia, to add to the kinetic energy of a counter strike. Literally using your opponent’s energy against them. The tighter the angle the greater amount of force is created. 45 deg angle you have effectively halved the potential. Plus added a greater amount of distance that needs to be travelled... too slow. Ask you sensei about “san-mi-ittai”... too difficult (or pointless) to explain here, but if you need help you can pm me. Just my two-pence worth. WNM

Hi tg, we are on the same wavelength, but it is more of a branding issue over marketing, as you can not succesfully market yourself if you don't know what you are to start with. When you have your brand, then you can market it. (I usually charge people mega bucks for this sort of advice). WNM

The name has never changed it was originally named Wado-ryu as practiced by the Wado-kai and still is. As I say, you can not legilsate for rubbish karate being taught, irrespective of style or location. But that doesn't mean the style is weak, it means you have some "naff" Wado schools in your area. Can you post up a link to something more current? In my experience traditional Karate is on the up, or it is here at least in the UK, and not just the kids classes. BTW, I think you can start to teach kids karate beyond kicking and punching, but my group doesn't tend to take them until age 7. IronFist, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you feel that how your club/s assoc. currently brands its self doesn't stand up to the competition. You have branding issue as it were. FWIW (and I am a branding professional by trade), the best message you can deliver is one of honesty, passion and knowledge. Perhaps you should be true to what you believe in and that’s Kickboxing and promote it as that. Maybe in the states you can get away with calling it Karate when it isn’t... and maybe that’s the key.... Don’t!! Either way, I wish you luck with your endeavours. WNM.

Ok I may be being a bit vague here... Are we just talking competition fighting here, be that mma, ufc, kd, wkf etc.etc., or are we talking about the bigger meaning of the word Karate? Just so I can be clear, I found this, is this the type of stuff you are referring to IronFist? If not can you point me in the right direction? WNM

Just to be clear, I didn't say Wado karate did not teach application from its Kata, it does, but it doesnt use the process of Bunkai. None of the senior japanese sensei in any of the major wado groups that I have trained with have used this process. More typically they use "Kaisetsu" which is a term that implies a "physical commentary" on a technique as it appears in a kata - unmodified. The process of ohyo / application is done in stages through paired kata and then eventually Jiyu kumite. Different means to the same end. WNM PS I have a bit of a problem with the words Wado Based!!!! Once you change something it ceases to be what it was in the first place... doesn't it? But that's another old Chestnut or "kuri" isn't it Dobbersky

I don't know where you hail from IronFist, I guess somewhere in the US, but TBH there is rubbish taught in all styles of Karate around the world - it is not exclusive to Wado or North America. I don't want to get into how I feel Wado “should” be taught here, but a knowledgeable person like your self will know of course that Wado does NOT have Heian katas , or for that matter bunkai (In the same way at least that say Shotokan karate does for example). It is a commonly held misconception amongst poorly informed Wado-ka that it should, but in fact Ohtsuka not only changed the name of the Katas to Pinans, he also changed the functionality / purpose to train in them. However the Wado black belts that you are referring to probably don't have access to instructors who truly understand the various layers of paired katas that wado has, in order to extrapolate the practical application of their karate. This is a process that has a fairly complex multifaceted pedagogy behind it, and is very functional - if you don’t train in good Wado with a knowledgeable instructor, you haven't a hope of trying to understand this. Therefore the only avenue open to these guys is to look to other styles to connect the dots. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel only at a very basic level is karate just kicking and punching. The modern competition circuit has bought about competition fighting, to an extent it does not matter what label your style has stuck on it. If it works it works, but competition is only one small facet of karate. TBH I don't think Karate needs kickboxing to survive, I think it needs quality instructors who understand the nuts and bolts of their art and in turn inspire and correctly educate students. WNM

Probably , the key difference though is the use of Kata; its function and application within the pedagogy of the system. WNM

Thats American Kickboxing then? And yes, thanks for the concern, but I am fairly well versed on the History of Okinawan karate, but cheers anyway. I just knew this was heading this way... WNM

Kickboxing is kickboxing and Karate is karate. To suggest that they are the same, or were ever the same, is like suggesting that wrestling is the same as Aikido. Sure they are connected and arguably there are different levels of functionality - not one supperior to another.. but they are different. Kick Boxing - Kick and Box ? Wrestle - ok, Aikido - to harmonise ones spirit/will/energy with that of your opponent, aiki = principle of momentarily pushing against but, then yeilding and allowing ones opponent to fall into a space you vacate? Harmonising on a spiritual and mental level, achieving "mushin" mind of no mind?... Training for an "indomitable spirit". I have never trained in wrestling club, but I bet the end results of the training are the same sort of qualities (we are all human after all) but the way they get there is different. Different means - same end perhaps, and different vibes picked up along the way? WNM ps. I have to say, I have dreaded this question, as it's done the round on many other forums with devastating effect. Let’s see what it does here, although I am not sure I hold out much hope.