tenshinka

Hmm...that is most interesting...It seems as though we have another Tae Keuk Kwon / So Rim Jang Kwon issue at hand....In anycase, my first and only lead would be to looking into Itosu's Rohai Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan as it is the only series of three I am familar with. We can only assume KJN Hwang would have used those forms, as his original forms had original names (Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, Hwa Sun, Ship Dan Kum etc)

Well, I think you may be looking for some time The reason? There is no rohai 2 & 3 in the MDK lineage. I assume you are looking for these forms based on the list of hyung in Hwang Kee's TSDSBD Volume 1? If so, you should know that Hwang Kee did not practice all of those forms, but rather it is a list of forms he knew of in Tang Soo Do (Karate). The Rohai 2 and 3 were actually developed by Itosu Yasutsune as Rohai Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan. Hope that helps...

Nim could be very closely equated to the use of San. The difference being that NIM is an honorific to all titles, not simply to those related to martial arts.

Sorry for the late reply, Joesteph. Actually you DO use nim when you are referring to a person of higer rank/position than you. For instance I might approach my instructor as "Kwan Jang Nim", where as I would not refer to myself as 'Sa Bom Nim' but rather simply, as 'Sa Bom'. An example would be signing a letter, where this instance would perhaps appear as: Sincerely, --John Doe, Sa Bom Nim on its own accord has no meaning, and is not to be used singularly. It only has meaning when attached to a title. You might equate it to approaching your instructor as "Honorable Teacher," versus "Yo, teach!". Hope that helps

Both RO and NO are correct.

OK folks...You all are missing some crucial aspects to this puzzle. Like english, the Korean language is filled with homonyms. SA does mean "fourth" in Sino-Korean counting (四) the hanja is the same for net which means "four". SA ALSO means teacher/master, and the hanja is different (師), for that matter SA can also mean scholar, again the character changes (士). The list goes on, and on. The fact that the title Sa Bom Nim is attached to the 4th dan, has only coincidental significance with the fact that SA is synonymous in english with both fourth and teacher. In looking at the characters for Sa Bom (師傅) it is totally apparent that the translation is "Teacher-Father", Nim being an honorific to the title. The significance of the titles you reference (Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, Sa Bom) is only in relation to your style SBDMDK, and some variants there of (TSD). In many KMA's the title has nothing to do with age, and strictly is used in reference to a persons rank. For instance: 1st Dan - Jo Kyo Nim 2nd Dan - Kyo Sa Nim 3rd Dan - Pu Sa Bom nim 4th Dan - Sa Bom Nim 5th Dan-7th Dan - Kwan Jang Nim 8th-9th Dan - Chong Kwan Jang Nim/Choong Jae Nim etc. Very few groups in the KMA world attach a title with an age. You either ARE or ARE NOT deserving of a rank/title/position IMHO. And yes, FWIW does mean "For What Its Worth". While I'm at it, Kwan Jang does NOT mean "Master" or "Grand Master" (though it is usually used to refer to folks holding those ranks). It actually means "School Director". Kwan of course means school, institute, etc (館) and Jang means director/owner. In SBDMDK the current head of the Moo Duk Kwan is by default, the Kwan Jang (in this case, HC Hwang), in the Mi Guk Kwan its Charles Ferraro, in the Moo Do Kwan its Andy Ahpo, etc. etc. etc. In other arts, Kwan Jang simply refers to a Master rank, and in some cases anyone instructor with a school. The title is not specific to martial arts, and in Korea is often used in reference to owners of hakwon (cram schools, alternate title being Won Jang) as well as owners of other types of business or institutions.

Chung simply means "chief" or "senior" (in context). Sa is teacher, and Nim is of course, an honorific. Cung Sa Nim thus equates to "Honorable Chief Teacher). Master Paone is a world class TSD instructor, FWIW.

As I posted earlier: Ryu does not in any way, shape, or form translate as way or type. The character actually represents a flowing stream of water. The philosophical implication vary from person to person. But "Way" is for sure DO [道], and Path is RO [路] (both in Korean and Japanese). There is only one school of PaSaRyu in Wisconsin. Central Wisconsin Martial Arts Institute. http://www.cwmai.com/ NOTE: Admins & Mods: I included the Korean/Japanese Hanja/Kanji above as reference to the romanization to the terms in question, as this is not always clear.

It is available direct from the US Soo Bahk Do Federation, for an outrageous amount...Like $150 (to non-members)...Its SOOOO not worth it.

heck out the Songahm poomse of the ATA...Those are some well designed forms. Also GM Kang Rhee of PaSaRyu TKD has modified the original TSD/KSD hyung with very deep stances, and various kicks that make the forms quite aesthetically pleasing, and very TKD'ish displaying the advanced johk sool of TKD... fwiw, --josh

I'd been thinking about getting this book, Josh, and when I saw your recommendation I just opened up another window online and ordered it from the Federation. You wont regret it Joe It is by far one of the very best publications the federation has out...Now if they ever publish Mu Do Chor Hak lol Take Care, --josh

As I understand it, there was a Korean government pressure to make all act as or become one as a "national unity" political move. I know that the Moo Duk Kwan actually sued all the way up to the Korean Supreme Court just to stay alive. You betcha Joe! It was trying to create a strong central movement, for political purposes (and to have something similar to what the Japanese had, I believe). General Choi used all of his political might to strong arm everyone into joining the KTA, thus almost everyone did...With the exception of Moo Duk Kwan, and thus the Daehan Soo Bahk Do Hoi...If you dont have a copy yet, get a copy of GM Hwang Kee's 50th Anniversary History of the Moo Duk Kwan...its a great read, from the "other side" of the story

Frankly, I have always thought the whole "unification" of the kwans, and the current unification efforts between Kukki TKD, and ITF as a poor political move, without much thinking of the "martial" aspects involved. My of the Kwans had unique, and now hard to find material (much of which is now only being practiced in the Pa Sa Ryu, Chayon Ryu, and by old MDK people... Its like taking Coca-Cola, Sprite, Dr. Pepper, Pepsi, and Mountain Dew (all of which have their own unique flavors and merit), and then deciding to mix them all into one soft drink...Its just nonsensical.

It can be found "streaming" online...

Why do feel the need to belong to an association? If you are happy with what you do, just teach, and practice...

Well considering it never really stopped... I find it interesting that the entire reason the Kukkiwon was established, is all but entirely ignored...The kwans are still seperate, and still issueing their own certifications...They still often practice their old Kong Soo Do/ Tang Soo Do material along with the Taegeuk forms, and many have simply kepts the Palgwe...Cant say I blame them...but as a casual observer all I can say is "interesting".

Yes. I'm aware of what the kwans "do"...I was simply stating what is *supposed* to be going on

I clicked on the link you found, Kansas City, and it says: After creating his [GM Tiger Yang's] art form Moo Yea Do, meaning Skill, Art and Philosophy, he is deemed 10th Dan Degree black belt of Moo Yea Do. MooYeaDoKid, who told you it meant "Way of Disciplined Art," since it's not what the official web site says? Josh is pretty adept at this, MooYeaDoKid. It doesn't look like what he's translating is anything like what the site says. You should be able to clear this up with your instructor. If you feel you're progressing, learning self-defense and the art of Moo Yea Do (I remember a video of you sparring; you were holding your own pretty well), then being pleased with the program, even happy with it, says to stay, at least until a dan ranking is achieved. If you don't feel this way, then you know what to do. Keep moving forward . . . Hi Joe, The translation from the website, is quite *loose* and *interpretive*. Most Koreans dont have any issue using their language how they will lol However, I find that it does not always mesh well with the generally accepted standards of academia on the subject ;-D Personally I dont see how "Way of Disciplined Art" is derived at all from the chosen hangul...But I am far from an expert lol Alas it is Yang KJN's art, so he can translate as he wishes, to express his ideals...'Cause in the end, that's what he is "gonna do" anyway....All that really matters is that his students are happy Best Wishes, --josh

*Technically* The Chung Do Kwan* like all other Kwans (except Moo Duk Kwan), support the Kukkiwon, and promulgate Kukki Tae Kwon Do...It was not so in the day... Chung Do Kwan was known for being a very powerful school...I.E. Very strong kicking, punching, and blocking skills. So *technically* all Chung Do Kwan schools should have the same, or a very similar curriculum to all others, being united through the Kukkiwon. Again, *technically* the Kwans are not even supposed to issue certification, but rather support Kukkiwon certification, and exist solely in the position of a "social club"... *Note: I used the romanization Kwan versus Kwon. The hangul (Korean character) is the same (관), however it is generally accepted that KWON refers to FIST (拳) where as KWAN refers to a school or institute (館). FWIW, --josh

Chikara, I am really confused as to what you are wanting to discuss. You started out asing: Here you ask what "made up" Ninjutsu", then in the same line, as or what styles came from it. When I replied with my answer in regards to the above questions you then replied: Very boldly telling us you now wanted to now what styles "came from" (thus used ninjutsu as source material) ninjutsu...I answered. Then you change the focus of your question yet again: Okinawan Te has nothing to do with the history of mainland ninjutsu. I have already answered where Ninjutsu came from, i.e. how it came to be...which is the first answer I offered that you turned down.... I'm confused

Oh...well...I would say not many (in any)...Ninpo has been pretty secretive, not open... Aikido came from Daito Ryu Judo came from various forms of Jujutsu as studied by Kano sensei. Karate came from Ryukyu no Te Kendo/Iaido came from Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu schools (of Samurai)

The answer is none of the above...You are speaking of Kokon Budo...Modern Martial Arts (the DO suffix). Ninjutsu is older than Aikido, Judo, Kendo, etc. It would be a contemporary of Jujutsu etc. Many of the ninjutsu ryu date back hundreds of years, as independent arts...

I would not use Isshin Ryu (especially that version of the form), as fair comparison...Most of the Isshin Ryu forms, are different from the older Okinawan styles...Notice the Naihanchi starts on the left...Also that form looks like it was done just to demonstrate the movements on camera... Here is me doing the first version I learned in Tang Soo Do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xn507erIOU

Okinawan? Wouldn't that make it Naihanchi??? Duh - haha - We call it Tekki though so Im gonna say Tekki. I suppose I could also say that its a much improved form of naihanchi thus is superior and again would be referred to as Tekki not Naihanchi. I will also say that Funikoshi changed the name but Ankō Itosu is credited with changing the kata. So no mainland arguements here. So prolly more accurate to say naihanchi=old way, and Tekki=new way. After viewing a master and a local Shorin Ryu guy do naihanchi I much prefer the new version. The old way looks funny and weak! Just messing with ya In anycase, the old way looks "funny and weak"??? I dunno what "old way" you refer to (which may be a new interpretation of the old way lol), but check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXENONqcdQs In comparison, those funny manji blocks that Funakoshi threw in there are funny IMHO...

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