sensei8

What? Am I suppose to argue with you? Especially after you've made some GREAT FANTASTIC points? Sheech, not me! BTW...LOL...I'm just funning with you Brian! Excellent points...again! I just can't do all of tricks that these whippersnappers can do, so I wouldn't even try. If I do try, then, they'll have to come up with a brand new division for me called..."Fall Down Go Boom" division. Therefore, I'll stick with "traditional" divisions, more my speed....slow and firm on the ground.

I hear ya' and I agree with ya'. Shame though!

In TKD, how does a practitioner avoid having the chamber take so long? My style of Karate, Shindokan, is taught that jamming a kick at its chambering is most ideal because of how long it takes a practitioner to leave the chambered position. This is when I usually jam a TKD stylist, at the chamber, for that very reason. As a matter of fact, it's not just the TKD stylist that's guilty of this.

Simply stated, it means "hold, break, leave" which are the levels of learning of a person. Shu, the practitioner tries to obey the rules. Ha, the practitioner tries to break free from the old rules. Ri, the practitioner tries to leave/depart from the rules. That's as basic as I can put it. Strictly speaking, the term is used to describe the developmental progression and understanding of a (specific) art form - through the use of kata. The word "Kata" should not be singularly viewed along the lines of the solo performance style "Karate" kata (ie Kanku-dai etc) but rather, as a set or form used as teaching tool to impart the core principles of the art. Most Kenjutsu schools for example have both solo and paired kata, as do Jujutsu schools. Even outside MA, the tea ceremony is a Kata. Kata with a capital "K" is core to the pedagogy of many tradition Japanese art forms, and very hard for us here in the west to understand (beyond the obvious performance / shape and form) as to how it really works. "Shu-ha-ri" describes the stages of this "Kata" and so therefore the art form in itself. Literally, "shu-ha-ri" means to embrace the Kata, to diverge from the Kata, and to discard the kata. In "Shu" students will follow diligently the footsteps of their instructor and fully embrace the Kata/art form faithfully as it is represented to him by his instructor - without question. "Ha" –is only achieved after many years in "Shu" when student will enter into the "ha" or divergence stage. This is where individual creative expression will start to develop but, the core principles of the art and correct form remain sacrosanct. "Ri" to discard – To arrive at “Ri” a student must have fully internalised the “shu” and “ha” stages of kata training. Ultimately this means that one has trained in the art to the extent that the Kata itself ceases to exist (in its external form). The core principles found/practiced within, become instinctive, to the point where an exponent can use his skills spontaneously and automatically in free thinking way as opposed to “set” into a form. WNM I agree with you. I wasn't doing a thesis, therefore, I was just stating it in the most simple and basic terms as I could in order to answer furry_Homeboy's question.

ABSOLUTELY! I couldn't have said it any better...and I didn't. Very solid isshinryu5toforever, very solid. Had I kept the dojo, I wouldn't have raised the prices! Why? Because the pricing restructure I did was only done to the tuition and testing fees, and these areas are the bulk of revenue for most dojo's. What I did on my retail side were completly seperate from tuition/testing fees. Besides, if I just went and raised the prices back up to pre-economic downturn, I would've felt like a greedy thief and I couldn't have slept much, if at all. A gas station makes no money at the pumps. A gas station makes its money in the garage. The pumps brings the customer in, but, the garage keeps the customer. So does a dojo; it doesn't make much from its retail side, but, a dojo makes its money from the floor of the dojo. Hence, the retail brings in the students, but, the floor keeps the students. Even though most students come in, not for supplies, but, to learn the martial arts.

Thank you and BINGO on your post! That's why I'll be open way after they've closed their doors.

Could I? Yes! Would I? No! I wouldn't return back to the original pricing structure. Why? As I stated back then, I brought the pricing structure as low as I could per my accountants advice, and at its lowest price, I was still able to remain viable. Therefore, I wouldn't have brought the prices back up TO THE ORIGINAL PRICING STRUCTURE; I'd feel like a thief! Before I would've brought up the prices, I would've relocated the dojo to the church first. That's me! Let's do a hypothetical. My church option doesn't exist. To raise the prices back up, there has to be a great reason(s) to justify it with my students/customers. And the only reason(s) that I can come up with are these: 1) Rent increase 2) Utility increse Uncontrollables are called that for one reason; they're out of your control. Rent I can negotiate, but, once the landlord sets the new rent prices, I've got to pay the new rent rate or move. Utility rate increases, well...one can't negotiate with them much if at all. Pay the utility rate increases or teach in the dark! Even at that, any and all increases must be done both small and slow!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090716/ap_on_sc/us_sci_moon_video

I also think that at times the reverse happens, when a Sensei may have made a change to something, be it subtle or not, and then passes it on to the students. Then, you get the students that become Senseis that then claim that if their Sensei did it that way, then it should never be done any other way, and yada yada yada... Hopefully I've not done that. While some of my Dai-Soke has rubbed off onto me, a majority of it is etched in stone because I've evolved on my own, therefore, I'm complete in MY totality, not the totality of my Sensei/Dai-Soke/Soke. The things I've not changed are because I AGREE with my Soke and my Dai-Soke in their teachings, but, it's me who agrees, and if I don't agree in their teachings, then I won't do it and they knew and know of this to be true of me.

Hehe, that's kind of funny. Another thing that I see along these lines is the overuse of the word "Osu!" Yeah, it's funny...and...it's embarrasing to see. You've said a mouthful on the overuse of Osu. Wouldn't it be funny if Osu meant something unflatering rather than what it truly means? To say it without really and truly understanding it's intent is silly. We Westerners want to sound so authentic in our mannerisim and the like, therefore, just because we do a Japanese martial arts, it doesn't mean that we are Japanese or understand the Japanese culture.

What is it worth? Some of you here might remember when I had cut my prices in half because of the economic downturn. Even then, I cut it another 10 -30 percent off of that. Why? My students are more important to me than my wants, for my students are what I value, and they're what I deem of great value. During all of this, I kept my ear to the grind stone to monitor what the economy was doing. School after school within my 25 mile radius was taking hit after hit; shutting their doors down! Even one school was raising its prices to make up for drop out ratios...ouch! I reassured my students that their school wasn't going anywhere. If need be, I'd relocate my school to my church, with my churches invite, blessing, and approval. Thankfully, that never happened! Setting a proper pricing structure is vital and it can't be ignored. My prices have never been over $100 per month, because that's MY choice and my dojo is in a middle-upper-middle class neighborhood with every bell and whistle imaginable. Therefore, I could've charged over $100 per month, but, I'm not in the martial arts for JUST THE MONEY! Yes, it was my only source of income, but, my student base was well over 300 students. I did what I think was right, just as any other instructor/owner does. My income now comes from the Shindokan Hombu in my duel duties as Kaicho and Chief Instructor. Is the pricing stucture at the Hombu similar to the other schools in its 25 mile radius? It was! Just as soon as I took over...WHAM...I restructed the entire pricing structure. Why? Because, I'm still not in the martial arts for money, I'm in the martial arts to share/exchange knowledge of the martial arts with whomever and I must make it affordable to all! What did my Dai-Sole do when I restructed pricing and the like? "You're in charge, do what you feel is right and necessary!", this is all he said. So...I did! Understand this, if you make a wrong decision on pricing, especially in this economy, wow, you're going to be teaching yourself, and it won't be anything about the martial arts.

Ouchy! True, but, still...ouchy!

I think part of "What's It Worth" includes a sincere "Thank you" now and then to our teachers. Last class I had before the weekend, there was a smaller turnout, so my teacher let me work with another student on some "odd" defense against wrist grabs. It was fun and I made sure I thanked her before I left. On her birthday, as she's also their teacher, I have my boys present her with a small box of chocolates and a card that they sign (well, at age seven, they print David and Patrick). Sometimes payment isn't made in money but in thoughtful recognition. SOLID! As soon as I read this post, I immediately dropped to the floor in my spirit so that I could say 'thank you' to my Dai-Soke properly for all he's done and for all he is to me! Osu!

I've even seen competitors kiai very long and loudly when they adjust their uniform/belt...okie dokie!

[i'll be brought to the wood shed on this one, watch!] At its core, no, a side kick is just a side kick. I hear what you're saying and I agree! Again, they're "laymen" and "laymen" of the martial arts say the darnest cutest irratating things, therefore, we just have to forgive them for they know not what they do.

You're right, we're suppose to be talking about the martial arts and I was talking about proper price structuring of martial arts schools, but, I used a recent example that I thought might describe a pricing situation. I don't care if people can or can't or aren't suppose to fix their own cars, and as as far as the $50 bucks, that's cheap, especially in the state of California and the fact that my brother charges by the Chilton Flat Rate and once again, $50 bucks is nothing. That's fair to say! But Don wasn't EVER going to charge the guy, Don was just funning with the customer, whom he's known for over 27 years. Don didn't handle it wrong because this customer he's known for as long as he has has never said 'thank you' whenever Don does something for FREE, so Don was just going to make a point to this customer/friend, that's it! Maybe my brother was tired of his customer/friend taking advantage of my brothers kindness all of these years, and a simple 'thank you' wouldn't have hurt this guy to say to my brother for fixing something this guy couldn't. My brother understands that in today's economy, people are going to try to fix their own cars by themselves to save them some money, Don supports that effort in people, but, when they do and something goes wrong while they're trying to repair their car, my brother's there to fix it, and my brother won't charge anything if it's something minor, but, something major, my brother will charge accordingly. Once again, what is it worth?

My brother and I were talking just the other day about nothing of any great concern, when, the subject of pricing structure came up. My brother, Don, owns a highly successful Auto/Truck repair business. Don, being an ASE certified master mechanic, as well as being a pretty smart guy, I mean, Don does calculus for fun. Don brought up a valuable argument as we discussed back and forth about how one comes up with price setting. Proper price setting will make you or it will break you! The other day a customer had brought his car into Don's shop to be repaired. This customer had done his own tune-up, and ever since he did the tune-up, his car has been running real rough and it had loss some power; basically, this guys car hasn't been the same since. The customer, over the next few months, tried everything to fix his car, but, to no avail. Finally, perplexed and confused, this customer admitted that he was at a great loss as what to do, this customer admitted that he was well over his head, and decides to bring his car to my brothers shop for some needed help. While/as this guy explains the problem to my brother, my brother opens the hood and sees the problem immediately! Spark plug wires #3 and #4 are crossed; they're on backwards! Don asks this guy, "What do you think would be fair to you for me to fix your car?" "50 bucks!" answers the customer after thinking about it for a few minutes. "OK!" replies my brother. Then, my brother reaches under the hood of the customers car and switches spark plug wires #3 and #4 to where they're suppose to be. Then, Don starts the car; presto! The problem and the car are both fixed; car runs great! Don shuts the hood, then sticks out his hand and says to this guy, "That'll be 50 bucks!" "I'm not going to pay you 50 bucks for what only took a few seconds to fix." responds the customer. "Why not?" asks my brother. "You told me that it would be worth 50 bucks to you for me to fix your car. Especially after you've spent many uncounted hours and untold money to correct the problem that you created." says my brother. "Isn't it worth 50 bucks to you to pay me for MY KNOWLEDGE! To pay me for something I know, in which you don't know?" asks my brother. "It's not my fault that I know it and you don't" my brother adds. Great point! We, instructors of the martial arts, know something that our students don't know, therefore, they should pay us for our knowledge! It's just that plain and simple! Or is it? What's it worth? Whatever the market will bear? Whatever the demographics will permit and/or invite and/or allow? What is it worth? After all, it's just the martial arts! IT'S JUST THE MARTIAL ARTS! If your students are willing to pay you an 'X' amount of dollars to learn the martial arts, which is something that they have no knowledge of whatsoever, then your knowledge must be worth something to your students. What's it really and truly worth to you? There are many varying answers, reasons, and/or opinions to this very question. Is there a law regulating the setting of prices? $100 or $200 per month? "That's a rip-off!" It is? Says who? Yeah, I agree that $100/$200 per month is highway robbery, but, that's just me. Obviously, many students are willing to and are paying hundreds of dollars per month. What's it worth? In todays economic downturn, one better know the answer to this question and one better be right. Otherwise, one better be prepared to close his/her doors when your competitor does know the correct answer. Wherever your demographics are; you better know the answer and you better get it right. Get it wrong. Well, Wal-Mart sells "Out Of Business" signs for .99 cents...plus tax! BTW, my brother didn't charge anything for his knowledge, he could've! But, that's not my brother. My brother just wanted the customer to say..."Thank you!" So...what is it worth?

From what I'm seeing at the big tournaments, is that there's NO pure traditional divisions anymore...anywhere! Possibly, there is a pure "traditional" division out there after all...still! Not at the Grand Nationals or at the AKA Grand Nationals, but, somewhere. Maybe, AAU Karate Nationals. Here's a link to the AAU Karate Nationals Kata rules... http://aausports.org/sprt_Karate.asp?a=pg_Karate_Handbook.htm Under Part 4 - KATA Competition, Article 12. Kata... I particularly like rule 12.11 Official Schedule of Katas. Why? Wankan is amoung the Kata's listed under rule...12.11.1.3 AAU Shotokan TOKUI KATA! Moreover, everything under rule 12.11 is solid and to my liking for what I'm use to and to what's missing, imho, at the Grand Nationals and the AKA Grand Nationals and the like. The Kobudo Kata at the AAU is equally solid!

Maybe we should. I'd sign up for it! Imho, all of the excessive kiai's means that these 'competitors' have never learnt or have forgotten the true purpose of the kiai!

So, from what you two are saying, I need to be from Cirque du Soleil!?!? What a sad epitaph for the martial arts!

I'd be doing Kung-Fu! Sorry, I finally just couldn't resist!

On p. 100, photo 2, I can't say that I'd use the same block he used (I think of open hand; he's looking to deliver a shock), but it has the same effect of allowing the wrist seize and controlling/pulling his opponent into the strike (p. 101, photo 4). Separately, on p. 101, there's the move to grab the wrist for the twist and takedown. In Soo Bahk Do, one of the more basic techniques is to seize the wrist and then three more moves, but as you go up the belt chain, you're shown how to do exactly this wrist/arm twist (just one move, not three) to down the opponent. (Efficient as well as effective.) Comparing the two in the article, one is to pull the opponent into a "backfist as it slams against his temple, neck, or behind his ear"; the other doesn't require a strike (although you can kick, as in photo 3), in case you want to take your adversary down without hitting him. I'd opt for the latter if possible if dealing with a drunk instead of a mugger, especially if the police are called. That's the bueaty of any Oyo Bunkai; there are NO boundaries!

I'm sure that there are more than whispers effect. Change is enivitable, therefore, change can't be ignored, nor can it be denied and/or restricted. No matter from who, what, when, where, why, and how! Are they wrong to change? That's for one to decide on their own! Allow the change to accure because it's a natural occurence in 'its' evolution!

I understand referring to Tae Kwon Do as a sport martial art (my apologies to those who are familiar with the non-sport content of TKD [like joint locks] that is often not emphasized), or else it wouldn't (couldn't?) have been accepted by the Olympics, but Tang Soo Do, and my art, Soo Bahk Do, specifically separate themselves from Tae Kwon Do. As martial arts, how are they not karate, since there's been such a heavy Japanese influence on them? Even the Pinan/Heian, or Pyung Ahn to the Soo Bahk Do-ist, series is incorporated in them. I do see that you mentioned country of origin, John, but how are they not another of the many facets of "empty hand" (originally "China hand")? The reason it bothers me a little is that I feel it's inaccurate, and inaccuracy bothers me. Like the OP, I think the use of a Japanese word suggests that it's a Japanese art. I accept that the general public doesn't care whether it's Shotokan or TKD, but if someone were to ask a TKD instructor which martial art they teach, I doubt they would answer karate, even if that's what is says in their front window. And the ones that would, what would they say if a Korean asked them, or another martial artist? I think it all depends on context. Personally, I know I can be a little anal about using correct terms, so I make an effort to be flexible. As a car guy, it bothers me when people refer to Mustangs as "sports cars" even though it's no where near the classic definition of a sports car. People often use "centrifugal force" when they actually mean "centripetal force." Most people don't know or care what the distinction is, and most people understand the intended meaning. As I see it, language changes over time, and if enough people want a word to mean something other than it used to, then that's what the new definition should be. Isn't that how even works for Webster's Dictionary? I get your meaning as well as your points! Nice post! I don't care if it's an orange or a tangerine; I just want to eat the darn thing because I'm hungry! Same thing, I don't care if it's called Shotokan or Shindokan; I just want to learn the darn thing because I'm hungry for its knowledge. Both feed me, therefore, both nourish me!

I too am an overweight instructor, not by choice, but nonetheless, I fit into the acceptable definition. I echo the sentiments of both Brian and JusticeZero, while I don't try to be overweight, I still am. I've a spare tire or two around my gut. It angers my Dai-Soke to no end, yet, he doesn't allow the look of my outer shell to take anything away from my skills. Why? He never questions his decisions on whom and why his students have been promoted or whom they are as individuals, therefore, not one Shindokan By-Law says that one must look like a Charles Atlas...this is good...because I don't...look like a Charles Atlas. Don't judge a book...me...by its cover, what's on the outside, but rather, judge me by the context of my martial arts knowledge as well as my skills, in that order! After that....proof is always found on the floor! Many may say "He's overweight" to themselves when I first meet them, but, once on the floor, I erase any and all doubts.