Proposal: bareknuckle, full-contact Karate with no kicks, just body punches and nothing else.

[Wastelander]

On 4/10/2025 at 1:25 AM, Zayd_Nofal said:

Hello, Wastelander! I will admit that my idea is unorthodox, and I do appreciate the constructive thoughts you have given me. I also admit that I am a comparative novice to many people here, only having studied marital arts for 9 years, so I like all the advice I can take.

There is one thing that I have been told about Karate as it appeared pre-Shotokan. It is sometimes said that during this time period (pre-1920s), fist fighting was far more common than it is today, and thereby a lot more people already knew how to fight by default. Traditional styles of Karate are said to therefore be supplementary training for "the guy who can already fight." Nowadays, however, due to life generally being more peaceful and controlled, it is said that less people know how to truly fight, making traditional Karate techniques far less effective.

Going along with this narrative, I have to ask: could this sparring format I propose simply be a way of teaching students the bare instinct of how to "fight", with more traditional Karate techniques being taught alongside it as the supplementary knowledge they supposedly were originally? In other words, assuming insurance was not an issue, is this limited bareknuckle sparring format a good way to at least psychologically condition students to the act of fighting, so that they will be more mentally prepared to use their traditional Karate techniques if need be?

Your statement that "fist fighting was far more common than it is today" is most likely true, in a broad sense, but I don't agree with the proposal that this means karate is "supplementary training for 'the guy who can already fight.'" I'm not sure where you got that idea from, as I have only ever heard that from people who train in MMA and have little to no actual karate experience. I can't think of a single reputable instructor or historian of karate that has made such a claim, and if we are looking specifically at the history of Okinawa and the development of karate, this is simply not the case. The form of combat that the majority of Okinawan people had exposure to and training in was tegumi/muto, a folkstyle no-gi submission grappling sport, meaning that if karate were supplemental to anything, it would be the ability to grapple, largely on the ground. Untrained people certainly got into fist fights, but there was also a saying in Okinawa that went something along the lines of "if you see people fighting with closed fists, move along, but if they fight with open hands, watch and learn." Despite how it is presented in the modern day, karate is much less about punching than people realize. We must also bear in mind that karate was developed by nobility for three main purposes; self-defense, law enforcement, and security/bodyguard work. None of these contexts is really best served by learning how to fist fight, and the people involved in developing these arts were not the sort of men to get involved in fist fights, more often than not.

COULD you use the sparring format you propose to teach students "the bare instinct of how to 'fight,' with more traditional karate techniques being taught along side it as...supplementary knowledge?" Honestly, I don't think so. What I DO think you would get out of it is the development of grit and the mindset of aggression, which are definitely beneficial for people who want to learn to fight, and I think that's really what you're getting at, but I think the skillset developed by the format is too limited to actually teach someone how to fight effectively. It also doesn't matter how many other techniques you teach if this is the only type of sparring you do, because if you never use the other techniques in sparring, you'll never develop the skill necessary to use them, so all you will ever use is body shots.

I realize that I'm not telling you things that you want to hear, but I truly don't think you're going to get the benefits you're looking for out of the format you've proposed. There is no singular sparring method which is perfect for pressure testing karate, which is why my late Sensei and I employ a layered approach where we employ multiple different sparring formats to develop different skills and attributes, and to cover gaps left by the compromises and limitations of each format. I'm not saying that you shouldn't spar the way you've described, but it has some glaring flaws that need to be addressed by other forms of sparring. I also don't think removing protective gear is beneficial, at all. If you want extra conditioning, do body conditioning bareknuckle in controlled training exercises, as it is traditionally done. Wear protective gear for sparring, not just for insurance purposes, but because it increases the safety, health, and longevity of those involved without significantly reducing the effectiveness of the sparring.

[KarateKen]

It kind of sounds like you are looking to do power slap but with body blows.  

[aurik]

We practice martial arts for many different reasons, and each style has a different path of ascending the same mountain.  As a Uechi-Ryu stylist, we have a much narrower curriculum than many other styles; for example, we only have 8 kata in the entire system.  However, as one ascends the mountain that is Uechi-Ryu, we are expected to train the entire curriculum regularly, instead of just focusing on the small segment that is our current requirements for our next belt.  Furthermore, as we ascend the mountain we learn new techniques and principles, we are expected to transfer those principles to all of our prior techniques.  So our hojo undo techniques (supplementary exercises, aka kihon in other styles) will look very different as a beginner/intermediate/advanced student.  

One thing we focus on in Uechi Ryu is conditioning.  Kote kitae (forearm forging) and ashi kitae (leg forging) are staples of our training.  In almost every class, you'll see us hammering away at each other's arms and legs to both desensitize them to the impact of strikes (and blocks) and to harden the bones and muscle.  Likewise, when we perform sanchin kata, we tense the entire body, especially the abdominals, lats, traps, forearms, and legs.  We periodically perform shime testing on our students as they perform sanchin; that is, we will pull, push, and strike them in specific spots to ensure that 1) they are able to maintain focus despite being hit, 2) that they are able to tighten their muscles to avoid injury when being struck, and 3) to ensure that they can maintain stability.  I actually find it's harder to maintain stability when someone pushes on me than when they strike me.

At higher ranks (dan grades), you'll even see students breaking boards over a student's body.  There are videos of Uechi-Ryu stylists breaking baseball bats with their forearm, or over their shins.  I've seen my CI break a 6' long 2x2 over his wife's abdominals, and you'll also see senior instructors breaking boards with their fingertips.  These demonstrations are only possible after years of conditioning (I've tried breaking a board with my fingertips -- it didn't work and it hurt quite a bit.  Clearly I have a lot more conditioning to do on that regard).

In our school we don't spar for conditioning; we spar for both cardiovascular conditioning and also to learn to deal with the unexpected.  We want to be able to defend and counter an attacker.   We also want to see students demonstrate that they can put together combinations and demonstrate basic competence and confidence.  Sparring isn't about winning or losing.  When students spar on a test (required for brown belts and up), we aren't keeping score; we just want to see if they can use their techniques effectively.

So while we do spar, and we do condition the body, we don't necessarily combine the two.  However, I will say that after a couple years of body conditioning, you aren't nearly as worried when someone kicks you in the outer thighs, or loses control with a kick to the abdomen.

Edited April 16 by aurik

[bushido_man96]

On 4/9/2025 at 4:10 PM, Wastelander said:

What you are proposing is essentially pre-Queensbury bareknuckle boxing, with the slight modification of not allowing punches to the head instead of it simply being uncommon due to the danger of injury. That's fine, but it's not karate. The way I see it, Shotokan and Kyokushin both significantly diminished the effective curriculum of karate by focusing almost exclusively on kicking and punching in their sparring, to begin with. You are then proposing to take one of those arts and strip it down even more so that it is just punching the body. At that point, you're just doing bareknuckle boxing. Everything that makes it karate is gone. You essentially admit that you understand this when you point out that it isn't a style of karate, and that it can be slapped onto any curriculum.

This, exactly.  I've heard it called "long-bridge" boxing, and seeing concepts of it some time ago very much reminded me of some concepts I've seen in the sticking hands exercises of some traditional Kung-Fu methods.

I'd also agree that injuries would occur.  Broken ribs, liver shots, kidney shots, all not great for continued training.  Furthermore, it limits actual Karate even further, even more than the adoption of the sparring rules and focus in Shotokan, Kyuokushin, and even TKD.  Although the sportive aspects of sparring can be very much fun to do, when they become the sole focus of application, then there's a rich amount of material that is being left out.

With all that said, I commend you for thinking outside the box and presenting this topic.  It really opens up things for discussion on approaches to training, which is always great.

Welcome to KF, glad to have you here! 

[bushido_man96]

On 4/14/2025 at 4:24 AM, DarthPenguin said:

from personal experience i remember years ago when i trained in a taekwondo offshoot and a much smaller friend of mine was talking nonsense about weight classes not being needed due to superior technique etc. etc. He then proposed we sparred full contact with some gloves and headgear (more like kickboxing). He stopped the round after a few minutes of being hit in the head (i wasn't unpleasant enough to go full power) to complain at me for only throwing straight punches with front or read hand and front kicks to the stomach, since there were so many more techniques and he didn't think i was utilising the style. My response was i can beat you up with almost zero risk to myself at a range you can't hit me at using these three things: why on earth would i use more?

I think this is fantastic!  Weight classes exist for a reason, and why complicate things more than they need to be?

[bushido_man96]

On 4/14/2025 at 8:26 AM, Zayd_Nofal said:

Well then I dislike Karate itself.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far; my guess is that you just haven't yet experienced the type and approach to Karate that you are looking for.  There are some other styles out there that are more self-defense/bunkai oriented that might provide you exactly what you are looking for.

[Zayd_Nofal]

7 hours ago, bushido_man96 said:

I wouldn't necessarily go that far; my guess is that you just haven't yet experienced the type and approach to Karate that you are looking for.  There are some other styles out there that are more self-defense/bunkai oriented that might provide you exactly what you are looking for.

I love Kyokushin specifically because it isn't traditional Karate.

Complicated self defense techniques don't work. Continuous full-power strikes work.

Edited Friday at 03:11 AM by Zayd_Nofal

[KarateKen]

3 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Complicated self defense techniques don't work. 

Why don't they work? 

[crash]

9 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Complicated self defense techniques don't work. Continuous full-power strikes work.

i will somewhat agree with you here. but this is also dependent on many other factors that come into play

 

6 hours ago, KarateKen said:

Why don't they work? 

one of the biggest factors would be experience of your opponent. one thing MMA has taught is that pressure points arent going to instantly take out an opponent, neither are other flashy tricks or complicated techniques, or other such practices once used to promote martial arts. (and still are for a lot).. someone with even a tiny bit of training can be difficult to beat even for a more experienced practitioner. while a lot of things are fun to train, when it comes down to an actual real fight. its best to stick with the basics and end it as soon as possible. NEVER underestimate or play with your opponent when its real..

[Nidan Melbourne]

12 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Complicated self defense techniques don't work. 

To be honest with you, I haven't met anyone (In Person) who teaches or has students to perform or learn "Complicated" Self-Defence Routines or Techniques. 

When I was a 1st Kyu; I had to create 10 Self Defence Routines from Saifa Kata. Every Instructor I had at the time reminded me of the KISS Principle, which is simple enough to remember but more importantly easy to perform on all different people. 

Even now as a 2nd Dan, I am dissecting Seisan Kata (Goju-Ryu Version) the longest routine I have is reacting to multiple attacks from a single attacker. In which it is probably a max of 10 odd techniques/movements. 

But I have seen my fair share of "Complicated" Techniques online, none of which I will share here. Because I don't want to disrespect those doing the work, and also because I haven't trained there to get the proper explanation as to the how and why. 

12 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Continuous full-power strikes work.

Contentious. 

Physiologically, you can deliver Full-Power Strikes but there is a limit to how much people to can deliver before lactate builds up. Thats why you often see UFC Fighters shaking their arms onces they disengage. As they are trying to get the lactate and other chemicals that build-up out of their arms. 

Everyone has a limit of full-power techniques they can deliver before they need to rest and recover. Thats why when your pushing yourself hard, you get that "burn".  

20 hours ago, bushido_man96 said:

I think this is fantastic!  Weight classes exist for a reason, and why complicate things more than they need to be?

Exactly, regardless of the divisions available; I'm always in the heavier division due to my current weight. 

Yes, I might get outmanouvred by lighter opponents but at the same hand having fought heaver opponents for the last few years has taught me how to hit appropriately against a bigger person.

I don't want to hurt anyone in competition due to them being 100kg lighter than me.