Quitting at Black Belt

[bushido_man96]

I heard something rather disheartening the other day after class.  The class opened by the head instructor presenting our newly minted recommended black belt (a kid) with a memo book to write in.  I'd suggested the idea some time ago of suggesting that students keep a training journal for themselves.  They would date each entry, and jot down either notes from class, what an instructor told them to work on, or they did well, or thoughts on how they felt they performed, etc.  I think it's a good way for students to focus their training more, and go back and reflect on their younger, lower ranked selves and where they are now.  The recommended black belt was also talking about how he was looking forward to testing, because he wanted to be a member of the group of black belts in his family.  I didn't realize this, but apparently his dad and some other members have trained in the past.

Anyway, after class was over and I was up in the changing room, the new recommended black belt said that he plans on quitting after he gets his full-fledged 1st dan.  I asked him, "why quit?"  He stated his goal was to join the others in his family that have earned black belts.  They apparently must have done the same; earned the rank and quit.  I said, "Why not be the one who keeps training?"  He asked me, "Didn't you have any goals?"  I told him I was still reaching my goals.  Then I said if I would have quit when I got my 1st dan, then I wouldn't have been there to train with him tonight.  I told him I plan to do Martial Arts until I die.  I asked him who will take over when I'm gone?  He said the other instructor.  I said he may be gone, too.  I told him to just put some thought into it.

This is most unfortunate, and it's not the first time I've seen it, especially in kids.  I think we as instructors should start discussions about training beyond the 1st dan level early and often as students move through the ranks.

I was not shocked by his revelation; just found it unfortunate.  I'm sure others here have had the same happen.

[sensei8]

Great topic!! Thank you for starting it, Brian!! You make a lot of great points!!

Yes, it’s quite disheartening whenever a student stops training after earning their Shodan.

I’ve always encouraged my Student Body that Shodan isn’t the end of the road in their MA journey but that it’s only just a new beginning. A new beginnings that’s not thwarted with unreachable new goals but a new beginning that’s filled with new and exciting things to learn and to excel in.

Unfortunately, no matter how much the CI encourages a student to continue MA journey past Shodan, those students still ended their MA training at Shodan. 

I’ve never been one to pressure a student in any regards. Ask a few times, then drop it!! I can’t stand pressure salespeople. Ask me once, maybe twice, but after that, don’t ask me again. 

If a customer, and our students are our customers, have no further interest in what you’re selling, then drop it. Harping over and over will only push that customer faster out the door. Closing the sale is an art in itself, and pestering a customer is a big no-no. Like the song The Gambler by Kenny Roger’s reminds us…”You got to know when to fold them, know when to hold them, when the dealings done.”

Student wants to guit after earning their Shodan?? No problem…no skin off my knuckles…have a nice day. Student wants to quit, that’s ok because that’s the harsh cold truth about teaching the MA: students quit all of the time.

A CI should not just feel disappointed when a student quits after earning their Shodan but at anytime a student quits, no matter the rank.

I’m not saying that it doesn’t matter to me when a student decides to quit their MA journey after earning their Shodan because it does matter to me a lot.

As their CI, I also have the responsibility to support and respect that students decision 100%, no matter what their reason(s) might be. 

Imho!!

[Nidan Melbourne]

We use the Shodan-Ho designation betwen 1st Kyu and Shodan. But we have the same issues as those who promote students straight to Shodan from 1st Kyu. 

Over the years, I have noticed that more kids quit once they get to Black Belt than the Adults do. 

I remember going through the Kyu Grades; and was told NOTHING about the Dan Grades and what training is like after attaining the rank of Shodan-Ho. 

Although to be fair, at my dojo at the time there were no students ranked above Shodan. We had several Shodan-Ho Students, even when I transitioned to the Seniors Class there were only a handful. But when I graded to Shodan-Ho, I had 1 classmate going for Shodan who was the most senior student there. 

However club-wide, my instructors (1x 3rd Dan, 3x 1st or 2nd Dan) were some of the most senior. But from what I know all up I think we had 3x Sandans (including my Club Owner), 3 or 4 2nd Dans and a handful of 1st Dans. 

My current club, we have 1x Godan, 1x Yondan, 4x Sandan, 5x Nidan, 8x Shodan, and several Shodan-Ho. But the reason we have so many higher grades, is because of my CI (Godan), our Yondan came from another club, and the remainder have come to the club as Black Belts and were consequently promoted. But it is possible for a student to have started in 2008 and be promoted to around 4th Dan (if awarded BB in 2012). 

 

[Spartacus Maximus]

The longer one trains in the same style and dojo the more lonely it gets. Things and priorities get in the way and life changes. It is only the smallest minority of almost obsessively dedicated individuals who manage to continue past shodan.

It is even rarer for those who reached sandan or higher within the same dojo. Usually by that time everyone else who started around the same time have quit way before or soon after reaching shodan. For every 1 person continuing beyond shodan, there must be a crowd of people who left after reaching shodan.

It would be interesting to ask a few sandan and above how many people who earned their grades at the same dojo at the same time are still actively training. 

[bushido_man96]

I agree that I'm probably not going to change this kid's mind, and I am no stranger to the dropouts as time goes on.  It is just disheartening to see, and to especially hear someone tell you their plan.  Sometimes theses students mature and come back, too, so there is always that.

@Spartacus Maximus, I heard the number once a long time ago was that 10% of the students that start out training end up getting to black belt.  From there, 10% of those make it to 2nd dan, and 10% of those make go on to 3rd dan, etc.  I don't know how accurate that is; I'd actually reckon that the percentage is lower than 10%.  I remember in my first go-around in the ATA, I started with a pretty decent group of fellow students.  When it came time to test for 1st dan, only three of us were left.  Of those 3, I am the only one I know of that is still actively training in the Martial Arts.

I imagine if there are any school owners here that have kept records of students they had start training and records of the ones that made beyond 1st dan they could lend some insight.

[Wastelander]

People are notoriously bad at goal-setting, and I think that this is an example of that, along with people getting bored or life just getting in the way.

I would say that most people who start training in traditional martial arts set the goal of "earning black belt," and they don't tend to update their goals as they get closer to achieving that, so once they earn black belt, they feel as though they have "finished what they started." I hear this a lot from people who quit before earning black belt, as well, saying that they want to get back into it and "finish what they started." I think we, as instructors, need to be more clear about the fact that black belt is NOT being "finished" with your martial arts journey, and help them come up with goals to achieve after reaching black belt.

[bushido_man96]

I agree, @Wastelander.  I think it's tougher for some of us here to wrap our heads around the idea of talking to others about "life after black belt," as the most of us here are lifers anyway.  As much as I'd like all my students to love the Martial Arts as much as I do, it just isn't the case.  I do think by addressing goals much earlier in the students' journeys that we can perhaps up our retention level.

[aurik]

Many of the people I talk to who are not well-versed in the martial arts think that earning one's (first degree) black belt is the goal of the martial arts.  I have spoken with a couple of coworkers whose kids did karate or tae kwon do.  "Yeah, they earned their black belts".  And that was it.  Our CI, on the other hand, tells students as they get into the green/brown belt ranks things like, "you don't start learning the really good stuff until you reach black belt".  And "a first degree black belt just means you've mastered the basics".  

His school also reinforces this.  At any of the adult classes, the first 1 or 2 rows of students will be black belts (or junior black belts) who are continuing to train.  Our school currently has about 8 nidans, 3 sandans, 1 yondan and 3 godans who continue to train regularly as students.

[bushido_man96]

That is great, @aurik.  I think planting that seed early is the key.

[DarthPenguin]

On 2/14/2025 at 2:34 PM, Wastelander said:

People are notoriously bad at goal-setting, and I think that this is an example of that, along with people getting bored or life just getting in the way.

I would say that most people who start training in traditional martial arts set the goal of "earning black belt," and they don't tend to update their goals as they get closer to achieving that, so once they earn black belt, they feel as though they have "finished what they started." I hear this a lot from people who quit before earning black belt, as well, saying that they want to get back into it and "finish what they started." I think we, as instructors, need to be more clear about the fact that black belt is NOT being "finished" with your martial arts journey, and help them come up with goals to achieve after reaching black belt.

I totally agree but only slight different take i would have would be on the 'finished what they started' point as it would depend how they set their goals! Easiest example i can give is my 8yr old son: he trains both karate and judo and is massively massively keen on his judo. He set himself a goal (a year or two ago) of being olympic champion (he aims high lol) and works really hard - i have heard him supping broccoli soup and telling himself he needs to have it if he wants to win the olympics. A while ago he got his 8th Kai (it's the under 8 'black belt' which i had never actually seen in person before so i must admit i was really proud of him). He then got invited to join his judo club (it has 10+ locations) competition squad and his response was "thats me finished that part, first step out of the way to the olympics" (he isn't lacking in self belief either!).

 

So i could see a situation where someone has set stepped goals: 1) get black belt 2) get 3rd dan within X years of this 3) get instructors qualification etc etc and so in that sense they could be finished

 

Though i do agree that in most instances it is likely that they are looking at it exactly the way that you thought!