Training Camps and Student Promotions

[Nidan Melbourne]

Out of curiousity; for those whose students are permitted to attending training camps ran by other clubs. What is your policy on allowing other instructors (if your not there) on promoting your students if they participate in a grading that is run at the camp?

So for context; one of the major clubs that is run here in Melbourne had run a camp every year up until COVID struck. So typically every year, they ran a grading on the Saturday afternoon/evening for the Dan Grades (and for those wanting to be promoted to Black Belt). Obviously you had to put your hand up to be considered for promotion, and be eligible.

Now that camp had instructors from the 4 major styles, and instructors from other styles there too. So good chances that you would have an instructor or two who understood your style. 

What are your opinions on the idea; Camps and Student Promotions? and how would you feel as the Chief Instructor if your students attended and subsequently promoted without your knowledge? 

[sensei8]

 

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 Camps and Student Promotions?

I've no problem whatsoever of any of my students attending any Camps. That's their prerogative to do so; what they do on their own time is their own business. Promotions, a.k.a., a full-blown Testing Cycle?? Is the Testing Cycle for rank in one of the 4 major styles?? Perhaps I might be ok with that...maybe.

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and how would you feel as the Chief Instructor if your students attended and subsequently promoted without your knowledge?

Is the rank for Shindokan?? Without my being present?? Without my approval?? NO!! It'd be an invalid Testing Cycle.

Without my knowledge?? In one of the 4 majors?? I'd only know if the student informed me directly. If not, I'd be fine because there's nothing to be upset or whatever about. That's the beauty of impunity. 

[Zaine]

I think it depends. If my student went out and got a Dan rank with another school, I would consider them to have a Dan rank with that school. When they came to my school, I would expect them to wear the rank that they earned under me. I would respect their decision to test, and that they have a rank in another school. They would just need to earn the same rank with me to wear it in my school. Full disclosure, I have my Nidan from the INKKS, and certainly didn't have any communication with my original sensei about it. There's a lot of complication behind that, but even if we were still communicating, I wouldn't mind if he still views me as a Shodan. Similarly, with my current dojo, they know that I am a Nidan, but I wear a Sankyu when I am at that school because that is the rank that I achieved with them. 

[Nidan Melbourne]

14 hours ago, sensei8 said:

 

I've no problem whatsoever of any of my students attending any Camps. That's their prerogative to do so; what they do on their own time is their own business. Promotions, a.k.a., a full-blown Testing Cycle?? Is the Testing Cycle for rank in one of the 4 major styles?? Perhaps I might be ok with that...maybe.

Is the rank for Shindokan?? Without my being present?? Without my approval?? NO!! It'd be an invalid Testing Cycle.

Without my knowledge?? In one of the 4 majors?? I'd only know if the student informed me directly. If not, I'd be fine because there's nothing to be upset or whatever about. That's the beauty of impunity. 

I had a feeling you'd post and make points that would allow me to clarify further. 

So the promotions would be for your style; so if for instance here in Australia there was say a 6th or 7th Dan in Shindokan and they would be there. They would have asked to "oversee" the promotion of those students. 

Who else outside of yourself would you allow to oversee gradings? If for whatever reason you were unable to be in attendance at the Testing Cycle. Also what is policy for future testings where you are no longer in a position to supervise and make it a valid testing cycle?

For instance; my Shihan (he formally started using it a couple of month ago, after realising we had 6 other Instructors using the "Sensei" Title at our small club) allows us Dan Graded students to grade outside of him with (but not limited to) 

- Yamaguchi Goshi Saiko Shihan 

- Tino Ceberano Hanshi (IGK)

 - John Ross Sensei (IGK Victoria) 

- John Lamberos Renshi (IGK Victoria) 

- Karate Victoria 

- Karate Australia

Both Karate Australia and Karate Victoria run Dan Gradings, but costs a fair bit to organise senior graded persons (3 or 4 instructors; usually 6th Dan or above) to come and oversea your promotion. 

We might not be formally affiliated with the IGK; but my Shihan has a positive relationship with the instructors (especially Tino Ceberano Hanshi) to allow us to be graded and recognised by them. 

 

[aurik]

Our CI is very open and welcoming of us attending seminars both by our organization and others.  In fact, he frequently brings in outside instructors to our dojo and hosts seminars to give us outside perspectives.  He also leads a trip to Okinawa once or twice a year so we have the opportunity to train with senior instructors there.  He is a firm believer in the value of learning different ways of doing things, and letting us incorporate that into our own karate.

Now as far as testing at such an event goes -- it just wouldn't happen in Uechi-Ryu without the knowledge and/or consent of that student's CI.  One organization's senior instructors simply would not test students from another organization, and they would not perform dan gradings of students within their organization without the consent and recommendation of that student's CI.  In any case, beyond a certain level (6th dan or so), Uechi-Ryu, at least in the USA, gets to be a really small fellowship, so everyone basically knows (or at least knows of) everyone.  Everytime I've visited another school and mentioned who my CI is, they either know him or his dad.  Maybe it's because my CI tends to attend (and teach at) a couple seminars every year himself.

Now if you had a situation where the CI of the school didn't feel like he had sufficient instructors of grade to run a testing panel for a student (for example, a sandan instructor had a student testing for nidan), I can certainly see how that CI would either invite another senior instructor to visit and run the testing board, or send that student to another instructor to test.  In fact, we had a very similar situation at my school a couple years ago.  We had a student from Nebraska whose instructor was not senior enough to promote him, so he came to our school to participate in our testing cycle.

Now, as others have said, if a student earns rank in another style that's another story entirely.   We have a couple students who have dan level ranks in other styles.  However, when they attend classes at our dojo, they wear the ranks that they've earned at our school. 

 

[KorroddyDude]

On 10/15/2024 at 10:16 AM, Nidan Melbourne said:

Out of curiousity; for those whose students are permitted to attending training camps ran by other clubs. What is your policy on allowing other instructors (if your not there) on promoting your students if they participate in a grading that is run at the camp?

So for context; one of the major clubs that is run here in Melbourne had run a camp every year up until COVID struck. So typically every year, they ran a grading on the Saturday afternoon/evening for the Dan Grades (and for those wanting to be promoted to Black Belt). Obviously you had to put your hand up to be considered for promotion, and be eligible.

Now that camp had instructors from the 4 major styles, and instructors from other styles there too. So good chances that you would have an instructor or two who understood your style. 

What are your opinions on the idea; Camps and Student Promotions? and how would you feel as the Chief Instructor if your students attended and subsequently promoted without your knowledge? 

I can understand instructors feeling as though their toes were stepped on.

But is this not common among the high dan grades?

For example, Hirokazu Kanazawa left the JKA as a 7th dan.  As the kaicho of SKIF, no one within the organization could promote him.  He was eventually promoted to 8th, 9th, and 10th dan by IMAF.

If Japanese and/or Okinawan cultures are not opposed to "do I as I say, no as I do" like we are in the West, I can understand the above being acceptable while not allowing it for lower dan grades.  Otherwise, not.

[sensei8]

12 hours ago, Nidan Melbourne said:

I had a feeling you'd post and make points that would allow me to clarify further. 

So the promotions would be for your style; so if for instance here in Australia there was say a 6th or 7th Dan in Shindokan and they would be there. They would have asked to "oversee" the promotion of those students. 

Who else outside of yourself would you allow to oversee gradings? If for whatever reason you were unable to be in attendance at the Testing Cycle. Also what is policy for future testings where you are no longer in a position to supervise and make it a valid testing cycle?

 

 

IF, there were a 6th or 7th Dan available to be part of a Shindokan Testing Cycle as either part of the panel or overseeing said Testing Cycle, which, overseeing said pane is not a necessity, I'd be okie dokie with that, Therefore, the Shindokan Testing Cycle of this type wouldn't be invalid.

Outside of myself, regarding a Shindokan Testing Cycle, whom would I allow to oversee?? Someone who's a Shindokan 6th or 7th Dan...OR...and I've given this some serious though in the past, someone who's a 6th Dan or higher in any of the 4 major styles, even though there'd be some crucial elements that make Shindokan Shindokan in their grading, but a 6th Dan or higher in one of the 4 majors does have both the knowledge and experience to know what's effective and what's not.

Policy for future Testing Cycle's?? There's no more policy or future for us Shindkanists anymore. The SKKA was dissolved for cause not so long ago, therefore, there's NO Shindokan Governing Body anymore, and any networked dojo's that remain, if any, have scattered here and there, or they've closed their own dojo doors. This is the sad and harsh reality that all of us Shindokanists face each and every day. We either form a new Governing Body with those networked remaining, if they're even wanting to go through all of that disheartening stuff all over again, or the individual dojos promote within; there's enough 6th-8th Dans intact to just that, if they desire that. They could also join other Governing Bodies, if other Governing Bodies would have them. They don't need me to validate their Testing Cycle anymore because they're independent!!

As far as me, and my future as a Shindkanist?? Whenever both Soke and Dai-Soke passed away, Hachidan was as far as I could ever be. I'm very fine with that because that Hachidan was the very last rank that I earned from my Dai-Soke. The SKKA ran a Testing Cycle with the means of circumventing the SKKA's By-Laws by testing me for Kudan. I fought and fought against that Testing Cycle, but gave in, not to the powers-that-be, but to bring back unity and peace back to the Student Body, which I've always protected as long as I can remember. While I'm Kudan, but in my heart, I'll always be just a Hachidan...now and forever!! 

 

[bushido_man96]

On 10/15/2024 at 4:13 PM, Zaine said:

I think it depends. If my student went out and got a Dan rank with another school, I would consider them to have a Dan rank with that school. When they came to my school, I would expect them to wear the rank that they earned under me. I would respect their decision to test, and that they have a rank in another school. They would just need to earn the same rank with me to wear it in my school. Full disclosure, I have my Nidan from the INKKS, and certainly didn't have any communication with my original sensei about it. There's a lot of complication behind that, but even if we were still communicating, I wouldn't mind if he still views me as a Shodan. Similarly, with my current dojo, they know that I am a Nidan, but I wear a Sankyu when I am at that school because that is the rank that I achieved with them. 

I agree.  The only way I would accept the grading as rank in my school is if the student first asked permission and received it to test without me being there.  But to just do a surprise testing and expect rank recognition in my school, I would not accept.  If they wanted to do it and claim that rank in that style, like @Zaine mentions here, that's fine.  It's their journey.

Now, if it was a testing conducted within our own organization, seated by instructors that our familiar with our curriculum and requirements, then I would have some more leniency, especially if I knew about it up front.  But if it was done because the student was intentionally going "behind my back" due to a lack of readiness that I would not allow them to test, then there would be more issues to consider there.

Edited October 17 by bushido_man96

[Nidan Melbourne]

Now fortunately, when I help at such camps where there are gradings; I make sure they get the approval for students to grade from their instructors. 

The last camp I was at; I was part of the Goju Crew that were permitted to grade. albeit I was responsible for those grading up to Shodan-Ho. 

 

[Wastelander]

Personally, I would treat it as an extra test, which is how my late Sensei and his Sensei treated promotions done while visiting the Shorinkan honbu dojo on Okinawa. Basically, if a student wants to test at a camp or while visiting another dojo, they can do that if they're eligible, but only AFTER they've been tested in my dojo first. I know that may sound a bit odd, but my late Sensei and his Sensei had higher standards than most in the organization, and I try to do the same, so a test with other instructors probably wouldn't cover everything that it should.