kihon drill stance

[Spartacus Maximus]

A question to Shotokan karate students/instructors:

After watching kihon waza drills of Shotokan groups in person and in media, many if not most drills for basic kicks start in the forward stance/zenkutsu. What exactly is the reasoning behind using that specific starting point? Is there some advantage to training/teaching basics that way? It is one of the first things noticeable when comparing how Okinawan schools train versus what is the norm in Japanese schools. The Okinawan schools have mostly the exact same drills used in Shotokan, except the most common starting stance is either natural standing(shizentai) or something that looks like a natural waking stance with a natural guard instead of closed fist with arms extended to sides like seen in the “Shotokan version” of drills.

 

Anyone have insights?

[Nidan Melbourne]

Despite not being a Shotokan Practitioner, I have heard that they go into Zenkutusu Dachi for Kihon Drills is to help developing the strength for the deep long stances they have and to work on distance when attacking whilst keeping a stable base. 

But to me as a primarily Goju Practitioner, it is odd to do it as the clubs I've visited start in Heiko Dachi or Moto Dachi (albeit sometimes in other stances). 

Currently my favourite thing to do is sitting based defences, both pre-emptive and reactive to attackers. 

 

[Wastelander]

I'm also not a Shotokan practitioner, but I did get my start in a style that was largely based on Shotokan basics and I've done a fair bit of research on the development of karate. The practice of those sorts of basic drills (along with kumite) was taken from Kendo, where they use a stance very similar to a han-zenkutsu-dachi. When Shotokan co-opted those sorts of drills, they expanded the stance just as they did with all the stances in their kata, which they did do in order to emphasize leg strengthening in the absence of proper hojo undo.

[bushido_man96]

I think part of it has to do with how the techniques became more stylized as they went along.  Long front stances look good, especially in forms competitions.

[Spartacus Maximus]

When comparing the kicking technique of high level Okinawan stylists with high level Japanese Shotokan, both have very solid, fast and fierce basic kicks. Their method of teaching and training kicks clearly produces a similar result technically speaking. So then besides stylistics and esthetics, there must be a different point of emphasis versus the “Okinawan style” kicking drills.
 

As for the Okinawan method described in previous posts, the explanation is that learning/practising basic kicks from a natural stance closed hands in a guard is that it is meant to emphasize all muscles involved in kicking. Most importantly the essential role of the core in the action. The other reason is that if one is attacked, one will most likely be in a natural standing or walking position, therefore it makes sense to train to execute techniques effectively from the position people are usually in when casually walking or standing.

[ashworth]

I come from a Shotokan background, but have also seen it from other styles, as mentioned in previous posts the main purpose in my eyes it for leg strengthening. My Instructor use to say that obviously in a real life situation you wouldn't assume this stance, especially with adrenaline running through your body, but if you train to kick from those positions, then you would be able to kick from the shorter fighting stance with less issues, (less likely to injure yourself from pulling muscles etc)... 

 

 

[sensei8]

7 hours ago, ashworth said:

I come from a Shotokan background, but have also seen it from other styles, as mentioned in previous posts the main purpose in my eyes it for leg strengthening. My Instructor use to say that obviously in a real life situation you wouldn't assume this stance, especially with adrenaline running through your body, but if you train to kick from those positions, then you would be able to kick from the shorter fighting stance with less issues, (less likely to injure yourself from pulling muscles etc)... 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree!! Without leg strength, stances are mute all the way around.

Drills to aide in the strengthening the legs, and in no particular order...

Squats

Hack Squats

Split Squat

Romanian Deadlift

Leg Press

Leg Extension

Lying Leg Curl

Standing Calf Raise

These help to isolated certain muscles and these exercises should strengthen the legs. Our Soke and Dai-Soke were infamous in having us remain in any given stance holding some type of weight until the point of no return was in their mind when our legs shaking like Jello...over and over and over.

[Montana]

Well, I could tell you all why we Okinawan stylists stand pretty naturally, rather than in a deep rooted stance, but they I'd have to kill you all. So, there's that aspect.

Well, OK, I'll share. We stand rather naturally because we're a more relaxed and "natural" system. Shorter stances, relaxed posture instead of tense and tight, the entire dojo and training system is based around this concept. A huge part of it is the way Okinawans view themselves compared to the Japanese and Koreans.

Okinawans are more Polynesian in nature, and appearance, than the Japanese and Korean people. Their way of viewing and doing things is different. their entire culture is different. Take a look at the typical Japanese or Korean dojo. Strict regimen, stand at attention when sensei speaks, lots of bowing and scraping, barked commands, loud yelling, punishment for infractions, etc. Whereas in some Okinawan dojos they're laid back, laughing, relaxed, not much for militaristic control, smiling, happy, butterflys dancing and unicorns singing.

Oops, ignore that last part. Those are the very high sensei's doing that stuff.

Anyway, the mindset of a Okinawan dojo is a lot different that that of the Japanese and Korean dojo, as are the techniques.

 

[Spartacus Maximus]

without going in depth, it is now quite obvious that the answer is that it is a question of focus and emphasis. Both « methods » effectively train and develop powerful kicks, but the Shotokan/japanese way seems to target a different part of the technique than the way kicking is approached with the Okinawan method of teaching/learning the same techniques.

For personal practice, both are good and useful, however it can easily be too much for teaching/training others. When teaching it would be recommended to introduce one way(Okinawan, in my case) and later get them to practise their kicking the other way to give them a different perspective to emphasize different points in kicks such as using stabilizing muscles etc…