Seisan kata

[camotheman]

Late to the party here, but I practice Shima-ha Shorin Ryu, an offshoot of Matsubayashi Ryu, and we practice Seisan. 

It’s pretty similar to Kyan’s Seisan, but the timing is a little different, and some of the techniques are executed a little differently. 

I’m not too sure of the lineage of the kata in our style, I’d have to ask my sensei, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t taught in the Matsubayashi curriculum.

I know that Taba Kensei and Kishaba Chokei studied under Hohan Soken so maybe that’s where they got it? 

Seigi Nakamura also taught at the Shima dojo and he practiced Goju along with Shorin ryu, so there could also be something there. 

[Wado Heretic]

That would be useful information to have to hand, Camotheman. Mark Bishop and Patrick McCarthy both write quite confidently about a Shuri tradition of Seisan, but their sources rely on anecdotal, verbal histories they have uncovered through interviews. It would be interesting to hear what you can trace back. 

I do have some updates to make to my prior entry. I have posted them elsewhere, but with this topic being revived, I will share them here. 

Unfortunately, I attributed far too much to Arakaki No Seisan. I have now become aware that the Aragaki No Seisan I am familiar with, and is the one probably practiced by the most people, likely has little to no connection to Arakaki Seisho. Rather it was a kata passed down to McCarthy from Richard Kim, and Mr McCarthy has acknowledged the potentially erroneous attribution, and openly stated that his current Arakaki Seisan is a personal development built upon the original. Plausibly, it came from Arakaki Sadou, a student of Yabu Kentsu, whom Richard Kim studied with in Hawaii. If so, Richard Kim probably called it Arakaki Seisan to say that is who he got it from. Either way, I am forced to discard it as informative of a historical seisan. An interesting side note is that in my research I can find nothing definitive about the Arakaki mentioned at the famous 24 March 1867 demonstration, who performed seisan, as being Arakaki Seisho. Nor can Graham Noble, a much more accomplished researcher than myself. However, it is clear Arakaki Seisho did teach Seisan as pretty much all his students did. 

Also, I have begun to doubt both the Ryuei-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu origin stories as to how they came from China to Okinawa. Ryuei-Ryu's seisan is suspiciously similar to Goju-Ryu's (Which I believe Miyagi modified based on his experiences in China), and Uechi-Ryu's to To'on-Ryu's. And although Uechi-Ryu's Sanrinryu/Sanseiryu is distinct, it shares many similarities with Niseishi when one studies the content. In short, much of their characteristics and content do not require the respective founders to have ever left Okinawa. It is also very telling that a Chinese form of Kempo has never been discovered that can be mapped convincingly to either style. Nor have researchers ever been able to find Ryu Ryu Ko, Kingai Roshin (Which brings the Matayoshi-Ryu origin story into doubt), or Shu Shabu with convincing evidence to any claim made. Thus, I am sceptical in using them as points of reference for my originally posited Chinese Pattern Seisan. 

Ultimately though, with regards to a Shuri Seisan I have yet to be able to trace back before Kyan Chotoku and the Tomari Tradition. Thus, the Matsumura branch, which I speculated to be an older Okinawan Pattern, is still bottlenecked at a Kyan origin point. And my Chinese Pattern hypothesis rests on speculation which relied on the Ryuei-Ryu, Kingai-Ryu, and Uechi-Ryu origin stories to be true. I am still moderately confident in my hypothesis that there is an older Okinawan Pattern that likely dates back to earlier Chinese immigration to Okinawa, and a later more modern Chinese Pattern brought back by Aragaki, Higoannna, and Miyagi, but the evidence I have access to is flimsy.