Seisan kata

[KorroddyDude]

Shorin-ryu is probably the least consistent of styles when it comes to what is taught and, if I recall correctly, the reason is that there was no "curriculum" before modern karate that had a specified set of kata that everyone had to know to make a particular rank.  You were simply assigned kata based certain attributes, such as body type, etc.  And that's reflected on how the different branches of Shorin-ryu (headed by the students of Itosu) differ so much from one another.  I'm not sure if Chosin Chibana knew or taught Seisan, but I know that Nakazato didn't teach it.  But Chotoku Kyan DID.  On another note, I'm not sure of Kyan taught Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan, but Shimabuku didn't.  So there's another example.

Shotokan's Hangetsu is unique in that you don't kick in every direction like you do in Shorin-ryu, but it's definitely closer to Shorin-ryu's version than the Goju-ryu and Shito-ryu versions.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by KorroddyDude

[Zaine]

Welcome to the forum, @KorroddyDude, it's great to have you!

I'm not sure if Kyan taught Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan, either. However, I know that Eizo Shimabuku, one of his students, did teach it. Eizo Shimabuku might have learned them from Motobu, who he trained with as well. 

[KorroddyDude]

16 minutes ago, Zaine said:

Welcome to the forum, @KorroddyDude, it's great to have you!

I'm not sure if Kyan taught Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan, either. However, I know that Eizo Shimabuku, one of his students, did teach it. Eizo Shimabuku might have learned them from Motobu, who he trained with as well. 

That would be Eizo Shimabukuro.  Different person from Tatsuo Shimabuku.

Edited October 9, 2024 by KorroddyDude

[Wastelander]

1 hour ago, KorroddyDude said:

Shorin-ryu is probably the least consistent of styles when it comes to what is taught and, if I recall correctly, the reason is that there was no "curriculum" before modern karate that had a specified set of kata that everyone had to know to make a particular rank.  You were simply assigned kata based certain attributes, such as body type, etc.  And that's reflected on how the different branches of Shorin-ryu (headed by the students of Itosu) differ so much from one another.  I'm not sure if Chosin Chibana knew or taught Seisan, but I know that Nakazato didn't teach it.  But Chotoku Kyan DID.  On another note, I'm not sure of Kyan taught Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan, but Shimabuku didn't.  So there's another example.

Shotokan's Hangetsu is unique in that you don't kick in every direction like you do in Shorin-ryu, but it's definitely closer to Shorin-ryu's version than the Goju-ryu and Shito-ryu versions.

 

I would clarify that a big reason for the discrepancies in kata curriculum in Shorin-Ryu is because Shorin-Ryu is a fairly generic name chosen to honor the Shaolin Temple, and the branches of Shorin-Ryu don't all share the same lineage.  Of the 4 main branches of Shorin-Ryu, only one of them was a senior student of Itosu, and that's Chibana Chosin, who founded the Kobayashi branch. Kyan Chotoku, who founded Shobayashi, trained primarily with Matsumura Sokon and Matsumora Kosaku. Nagamine Shoshin, who founded Matsubayashi, trained primarily with Kyan and Motobu, which does put him in Itosu's lineage, but I wouldn't say he was a student of Itosu. Hohan Soken, who founded Matsumura Seito, supposedly trained with "Nabi" Matsumura, and then picked up some material from Chibana after the moved back to Okinawa, which also ties him to Itosu, but not directly. They all have some crossover with each other, but they all also trained with several other people, besides their primary instructors, so there is no singular line of Shorin-Ryu that can be traced back to a source, whereas all Goju-Ryu comes from Miyagi Chojun, and all Uechi-Ryu comes from Uechi Kanbun.

[Zaine]

14 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

That would be Eizo Shimabukuro.  Different person from Tatsuo Shimabuku.

That is correct. He used the Shimabukuro/Shimabuku name interchangeably. 

[Nidan Melbourne]

I know i commented on this a while back, but upon reflection I realise I forgot to add some content as I remember some things that my sensei (now Shihan) mentioned a few times whilst I was training. 

When the masters were about, they taught students based on what they thought would fit them suitably. Even if they were taught predominately the same kata, some minor variations may have been taught to suit the physical and/or psychological aspects of each individual student. 

So for Seisan, as relevant to this post; I learnt what I know as the "Dojo" Version which is what I am supposed to demonstrate at Gradings or any events where I am demonstrating a kata. 

But on the same hand, I have a "Tournament" Version which has some small differences to it along with a "Liam" Version which I made some minor adaptations to suit me and my physical needs when required. 

The "Liam" Version of katas, typically revolve an adjustment around stance height or changing it to a similar stance. So Seisan, if my joints are in no condition to go low then I sit higher in my stance. If I have to go in "Crane" Stance and I can't physically do it, I modify it to Neko Ashi Dachi ("Cat Foot Stance"). 

 

So when I teach, I mainly do the following: 

- Dojo Version (Required)

- Tournament Version ("Shitei" Kata) 

- Student Variation  - This is only done when I am working 1 on 1  and adapting it to their needs. But they need to understand and demonstrate the "Base" (our Dojo Version) and how the variation they learn still works or impacts how the application may work. However, 90% of the time, when I work with advanced students I get them to do the kata the way we ask then for them do it based of how they FEEL like it works naturally and effectively for them. 

[Spartacus Maximus]

In the original post the question was about the style taught by Chibana and his students who eventually started their own schools. My teacher’s teacher(Miyahira) was one of these and so was the late master Nakazato(founded Shorinkan). It is now almost certain that Seisan taught in my school didn’t come from Chibana, otherwise everyone trained by him would include it. 

[gspell68]

On 10/9/2024 at 4:18 PM, KorroddyDude said:

That would be Eizo Shimabukuro.  Different person from Tatsuo Shimabuku.

And different from Zenpo Shimabukuro, another one of Kyan’s students and the founder of Seibukan!

Oh, and to answer the original question, Seisan is very important in  Shorin-Ryu Seibukan.  
lt was the very first kata I was taught.  
Fairly different than other Shorin versions, even those others who studied under Kyan like the Isshinryu Shimabuku, Chitose, Nagamine, Nakazato, etc…

Edited 19 hours ago by gspell68

[Furinkazan]

To my knowledge, only Kobayashi Shorin-ryu lacks Seisan.  Kobayashi Shorin-ryu is also strictly Shuri-te, in that most don't teach any Tomari-te katas.  I know of one that teaches Rohai, and that's about it.  So we can forget about Naha-te katas, such as Seisan.

Except, Seisan isn't strictly Naha-te.

If you pay close attention to how different styles do Seisan, you'll notice that the various branches of Shorin-ryu that do practice it have various things in common that separate it from the versions practiced in Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu, and Uechi-ryu.

And, contrary to popular belief among most of my fellow Shotokan students... Hangetsu is based on the Shorin-ryu version of Seisan, not the Goju-ryu version.  The slow turns at the end where you lift your knee and bring it down with the slow back fist and take two steps forward is only present in Shorin-ryu.

I'm certain that Naha-te was the first in Okinawa to practice Seisan, but it eventually spread to Shuri and/or Tomari for it to develop its own distinct Shorin-ryu flavor before the development of modern karate styles. 

[aurik]

Nice to see this topic being resurrected, so to speak.  Seisan is one of the core kata in Uechi-Ryu.  The kata itself is required testing material for shodan, and its bunkai is required for shodan through godan.  As I am starting the test prep cycle for my sandan (testing sometim in May), I find myself performing this bunkai more and more in class, both as a student and as an instructor.  And as I teach and practice the bunkai, I continue to learn subtle differences in application between different instructors.

In Uechi-Ryu, our forms look somewhat different than most Japanese and Okinawan karate styles.  The vast majority of our kata are performed in Sanchin stance.  Every so often we'll transition to a modified Zenkutsu-dachi (for example, for a forward elbow strike), a Neko-dachi (usually when starting/ending a crane block), or a shiko-dachi (when performing certain other elbow techniques.

Seisan falls right in the middle of our kata progression.  We start with Sanchin (learned at white belt), have 3 "bridging kata", learn seisan (required for shodan), have another 2 "bridging kata", and our final kata is Sanseiryu (required for yondan/godan).  There are apocryphal tales that Kanbun Uechi was also learning Suparinpei, but he never received a Menkyo (teaching license), so he never taught it.  There are some Uechi-Ryu instructors that will teach a Suparinpei kata, but it is not an official part of any Uechi-Ryu curriculum as far as I know.

For reference, here is a video of our version of Seisan and its bunkai: Seisan Bunkai