Is kata beneficial?

[bushido_man96]

I've always enjoyed forms training myself. As I've gotten more experience and learned more things, I've found different things of value over the years. Do I think it should be the heart of training? That's a bit tougher to decide on. I like to think of training as a stool, with at least three legs, if not four. Kata/forms training is just one of the legs. Like a stool, if you take one of the legs away, you lose some of the balance and stability.

[Himokiri Karate]

Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.

All seriousness, my answer is a yes and a no. Let me explain:

No for part time karateka

 

Yes for full time karateka

 

What I mean is, most folks that Karate do so maybe 2 or 3 times a week. The classes are an hour, the time SHOULD be dedicated to body conditioning, cardio and extreme flexibility as well as restorative stretches for folks who are part time karateka.

That being said, I also understand members of the karaeforum.com. You guys eat, breath and live karate. To omit kata is to deny the essence of life because karate is not part of your life but rather IT IS life itself!

Because you guys are so deep in to karate, kata serves as a way to improve your software without damaging your hard wear. Karate is physical and a full time karateka has to treat their training as a marathon and not a sprint since you guys are frequent practitioners.

In conclusion:

Part time karatekas should focus on intensive, explosive fighting techniques because the down time for next session allows for recovery

Full time karateka should do katas because they are training all the time and because of that they should ease up on explosive training and focus more on kata type training provided its done right.

Also it depends on students personal goals as well. If a young lady wants to learn protection, then she should be in a superb cardiovascular shape and better knuckle up for Makiwara training or conditioning. If another student wants to understand the essence of karate and engage in its subtle nature, then I suppose kata can be effective if its done in a meditative state with mind being clear of thoughts and breath being synched in with the movements to provide that potent experience.

[ashworth]

Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.

Unless it's a kata Tournament?

[ashworth]

I also find that kata can provide us with a universal tool that we can take to other places. for example the Kata Bassai Dai, learn the pattern, applications and key principles from your instructor. Further down the line a different club may be hosting a seminar on that particular kata which you can go along to and learn a different view of the kata, different applications and different principles from another instructor...

[DarthPenguin]

Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)

[aurik]

Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)

That depends on the style, I guess. The bunkai for Uechi-Ryu kata (or at least all the bunksis I've seen so far) very closely mirror the kata. So much that when we perform bunkai, we will perform a sequence of the kata, show the application for that sequence, and then perform that sequence solo again and move on to the next sequence. For example, the bunkai for kanshiwa (required for 9th-7th kyu) can be seen

(the full kata is

.

[Wastelander]

Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)

This may be getting a bit off-topic, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory or confrontational, but I can't help but ask the question; what do you think kata were designed for, and why were they built the way they were?

If it was just for body control, awareness, and coordination, then why would they bother to design the kata the way they did? Gymnastics/acrobatics accomplish the same things--arguably far better--so why not simply do that? Weightlifting, too, has proven to have the same benefits. Seems like a waste of time to do kata if they have no other purpose, especially given the fact that the Okinawans who developed karate had plenty of access to both gymnastics/acrobatics and weightlifting, and many actually did those in addition to their kata. Kihon training also accomplish the same things, but the basics are essentially just movements already used in the kata, which you've already said aren't useful for application, which then brings the practice of basics into question, entirely.

What, then, makes karate a "martial" art, exactly? Sparring? The only sparring most karateka do, nowadays, was invented in the 1940's/50's, more-or-less, so that certainly doesn't get back to the intent of the art. I have seen it argued that the kata and kihon improve your sparring, but really, the skillsets used in the vast majority of modern kumite are completely different than the movements, postures, and mechanics you use in kata and kihon. That, again, begs the question of why not just do gymnastics/acrobatics or weightlifting while training sparring, if they essentially serve the same purpose as the kata and kihon, but more effectively? That's what modern competitive fighters tend to do, already, in fact.

[Himokiri Karate]

Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.

Unless it's a kata Tournament?

It was a Terry Silver quote but I guess in this context, it doesn't work.

[bushido_man96]

Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)

This is an interesting take, however, not the first time I've heard it, either.

I'm kind of the opposite; I really like finding some applications to apply to techniques from the forms. I don't know which one's you don't particularly care for, but I've seen some that are very similar to the techniques done as they are in the forms.

I take it you're not a fan of Iain Abernethy?

[bushido_man96]

This is an article I wrote back in 2007, talking about the practice of forms. Keep in mind, I was a much younger Martial Artist then, and had yet to be exposed to the idea of applications. Suffice it to say, I have grown as a Martial Artist since then, but I still think the article has some value.

What Forms Are Good For