Favourite Kata

[Miick 11]

So at the moment I am holding in memory and form ; Pinan 1 - 5 , Niharchin 1 - 3 , Passai 1 & 2 ,Rohai , Chinto, Jojushiho , Hakatsuru ( still working on kusanku ), Oshimi pasai and Nobudi nogata . 5 Bo kata , 3 sai, 3 gamma, 2 ecu, a range of sword and jo techniques and a jo / sword dual kata or form I developed .

We had (and I'm not entirely sure why the American tradition went this way) a few Shorinji kata in our program. So I'm holding on to Seisan, Wansu, and Ananku as well.

I've actually been mulling over the idea of making an online repository for MSSR (and other systems, but MSSR is what I know). It seems a little silly that in 2021 our system can be dying off due to lack of knowledge. There has to be someone in the world who has knowledge of the things we're losing. I'm involved in HEMA as well and every fencing manual from the Medieval and Renaissance period are easily found on Wiktenauer, a free online Wiki. I know that MSSR can be secretive, that seems to be a trait of MA at large but I've never met another MSSR practitioner who wasn't at least a little guarded. I totally understand this, as well! Like you, I balk at the idea of making changes within the kata and various traditional techniques. I don't mind those techniques being adapted in sparring etc. but I believe that we should learn the original technique before adaptation. That said, if there was, at bare minimum, a drop box file that held kata information that instructors could share with their students as they came to these kata that would be awesome. I know that for my purposes it would be great to see some kata again to knock off some rust.

when you do an 'outer block ' , 'inner block' or 'lower' block ' , with your blocking hand , in each of these techniques , are you knuckles facing the target or side on to it ?

So like I mentioned above the American program has incorporated some Shorinji techniques. So the MSSR I learned had both blocks with the knuckles facing toward and to the side of the opponent that we separated into "Matsumura" and "Shorinji" blocks (we had punches in both of these techniques as well). That said, in practice and sparring, we were mostly encouraged to use the Matsumura techniques, which is the knuckles facing the opponent.

Thanks. One more question about the knuckle thing . Why ? - why block with the knuckles outward ( towards what you are blocking ) and why with them facing forward ?

Yes, I am going somewhere constructive with this . and it may relate to this 'original kata ' / 'secretary ' thing .

( So far in the traditions that I have seen come down from Soken , there seem to be 3 types of 'Matsamura Seito ' ) .

[Zaine]

Thanks. One more question about the knuckle thing . Why ? - why block with the knuckles outward ( towards what you are blocking ) and why with them facing forward ?

Yes, I am going somewhere constructive with this . and it may relate to this 'original kata ' / 'secretary ' thing .

( So far in the traditions that I have seen come down from Soken , there seem to be 3 types of 'Matsamura Seito ' ) .

So I can't remember my instructor giving any hard reason as to why we did it one way or another. The American canon of MSSR seems to be rooted largely in doing things based of tradition and so I got the impression that other things were lost in the fervor of wanting to stay true.

In regards to biomechanics, his reasoning that the Matsumura style of blocking was more solid and stable than the Shorinji style blocks. This made sense at the time and still does. He offered that Matusumra might have been better for uneven terrain of Okinawa, and at the time I bought in whole sale but as an adult I'm less inclined to believe this.

For me and my own reasoning, it seems to be a difference in how the block strikes. Do I want to strike the arm (e.g.) with the knuckles on my index and middle fingers or with the side of my arm with a closed ridge hand? It seems to me that Matsumura is great for offering stability if sacrificing some power while Shorinji is the opposite.

[Miick 11]

Okay, thanks.

This is hard to explain when NOT in person , ie, with words nd no actions.

Its also hard to explain as most dont have my experience . By that I mean , my particular TYPE of experience .

as a lad I started Shotokan. They made a big deal back then about how traditional it was . You where taught do things a certain way , you did them and that was that . Not many explanations aside from the obvious and a lot was unknown. I was even told it was 'rude to ask questions' ... not so much to ask a question , but rude 'to question' the Sensai '.

This is SO different from how I work now . I have hounded my instructor for years, in some cases , resulting in new bunkai, understandings and elimination of 'bad' and even dangerous ( to yourself ) bunkai . We have BOTH learned a lot due to this .

But you would not 'dare' do this before . Kata was taught a certain way and the practice of basics was drawn from that ( with variations ... that seemed a bot of a stretch at times . ) It was so precise that I have been picked up, at the end of a kata for not having my thumb joint ( on my retracted fist resting at my hip ) not at exactly 90 degrees . anyway, kata was done a certain way and one had to do it that way, often without explanation or with a bad explanation or a 'dont know ' .

The difficulty here is , now, I say " Remember how this kata used to be done like this ? " but people dont know as their training never went back that far , or they did something different .

I have seen it still done like this in some modern youtubes though .

Eg . Pinan Nidan ( Heian Shodan ) - 2 moves to the left, two to the right then you turn and go up the middle line with upper blocks . When you turn and before the first upper block , the left arm and hand is extended forward and up first and drawn back to the hip as the right does the block.

I remember even practicing this alone in a series of upper blocks going up and down the hall; extend the left arm out ( like a Nazi salute ) , step forward while retracing it to hip and blocking up with the right . Then extend the right forearm from that blocking position, to make the 'salute' , step forward, draw it back as the left does an upper block, extend the left to the 'salute' ... and so on .

or even with a lower block ; the straight left arm is pointing down, then moved cross to the center line , then retracted as the right does the lower block, the right fist is opened and the hand moved towards the center line , step forward, draw it back and do left downward block .

We spent so long going up and down the hall , forwards, like in the kata doing that . YET when practicing with another , we did it moving backwards ??? ( There are a whole lot of these discrepancies that can be explained , once you have 'the key' .

But a lot of these little moves got eliminated over time from kata so people do not know what I am meaning . I better insert a demo so those unfamiliar know what I mean ;

one example 0:23 - 0:29

I have asked about this and the response has been vacant, or silly ( You are 'sighting' the block .... retracting that arm gives you a line to follow for the other to block along , etc )

Hikate is a better response, as this is partially valid, and IS used in some of the bunkai ( eg. 2nd move of Pinan Nidan ) but it doesnt hold up to explain the whole picture here .

What is actually happening - in one of the 'versions' of Matsmuraa Seito is ;

That hand that goes out first is the 'block' (usually a deflection ' 'no block ' - see below ) and what most call the 'block' is actually a strike ( also examine the words we think refer to a 'block' - gedan bari , soto uke , those words dont mean 'block' at all ).

Look at the 'outer block' - some styles step back, or slightly off line, to the outside , and knock the others arm away, with a sweeping outward movement of their arm, deflecting the others arm with their forearm, then step forward for a reverse punch counter, or if in a closer position, dont need the forward step . Some even extend their other arm first before they do the block ... try asking them why .

What I have been taught , as the 'old original / fighting form' way , first, move to evade off line, from their right punch, to your left, while 'deflecting' (or to stop it tracking your movement ) with that extended left palm or edge of palm and your right 'winds up' or 'loads' then comes across, knuckles out, to strike the side of their outer elbow 'weak point' as you retract your left for strike with that - then the technique continues in a variety of ways .

'Gedan Bari' - you step back and do a down ward block against a front kick, then retaliate .

OR, as I was taught , going up and down the gym , forwards ; left hand out and down, move it to center linen , step forwards, retract it and do right down wards block ( but in practice with another we would move backwards blocking as the kicker moved forward - up and down the hall . I did ask then why ... why is the movement forward in the kata ? What ? We are advancing on someone and as they retreat they are dong a series of kicks ?

The answers where lacking - to say the least .

Remember being drilled to do those half circle steps ? Left front stance, slide the back right foot in and next to the right , keep low, knees bent , Slide it out and forward to make a right front stance .

Put it together ; your opponent does a right front kick , you move forward, stepping (not sliding ) your right back foot in to the other , moving off line and evading the kick, your left hand comes across to knock it out the way or stop it tracking you, as you step forward with the right foot your right hand comes down, knuckles out, to strike the side of the kneecap .

That is why we have a strange hand position in doing inner block; the fist is coming across, with the finger (2nd ) knuckles extended to strike the attackers right punch, with a whipping motion on their right wrist around P6 point .

No 'blockie' ... why you blockie ?" Because they are strikes , not 'blocks' .

What happened ? karate was a deadly fighting form . It got changed to a physical eduction / exercise for school kids , you cant have kids attacking the pericardium nexus , flicking fingernail across eyeball etc etc . It all got changed , then changed again when they taught Americans ( for obvious reasons - they where the invaders and enemies ! ) and American servicemen ( another clue , see below ) , then turned into a sport - no punching back of head, no kicking kneecaps, no groin attacks ....

Hohan Soken went to Argentina at the start of all this and missed it , when he returned he saw 'karate' and asked what it was ... thats how much it changed , he had been in isolation and missed it all, war, changes , etc . So we have a time capsule with him.

He started teaching a few on his return to Okinawa, then expanded out . There was close friends and family teaching, school / dojo teaching and 'base style', what they taught the American servicemen on their military bases .

Mr Nishihira would 'go long' with base style or school style . If you where 'worthy' you would be taught 'real fighting style' or 'family style ' , it was more private . many where taught both, but many dont seem to have deciphered what was going on, and still to this day, teach the 'new' style, even though they know some parts of the old techniques . That rather mystifies me -

I will also cite this video for a source of info on this, its scattered through the video and it also shows how 'the truth' or 'extra opportunity' can be offered to some and ignored, missed or never acted upon /

Its Dillman , I am not advocating Dillman at all, but it interesting that he affirms information that actually detracts from his own 'skills' .

This is a very brief explanation of the process and I have left a LOT out as it take so long to write it all out . But if anyone has questions I am happy to respond ( within my time constraints

What gets me is why those that know this, STILL teach those old adapted techniques ? i broached this many times with my instructor even to the point of ;

I hold my right hand out standing off to his right " Punch my hand with a left ." Instructor zooms in with a left lunge punch and withdraws his right hand to hip . I slap him upside his head with my left . he gets the shits .

Me; " Now do sanshin kata " he does the first few punches, as they are done, with the non punching hand keeping guard up. I get him to punch my hand again but this time with 'sanchin punch' . I go to slap him upside the head with my left - he easily knocks it out the way or blocks it as he has that side's guard up .

me; "Now do you get what I mean ? "

Him; " yes, "

me ; " Then why do you continually tech people, adult senior good students , that first way to punch ? "

he seemed stumped . Then thought bit and ; " Its just a punching exercise ."

Me " Okay, but why teach them a bad punching exercise ??? "

he thought about that ... and I still do not have an answer .

IMO , Soken and Nishihira left hints ll over the place for us to work out ... even some of Soken's other senior close students didnt seem to get it and STILL teach school kid / sports karate

Do watch the Dillman video if you havent seen it ;

" Everything he hit was a pressure point - EVERYTHING ! "

" Why you block ??? There is no block . "

[Zaine]

My thoughts on Dillman aside, the punching thing is familiar. It was always treated as a warm up with us though. Our punching drills (which were done during the "40 basics") were always just about warming up the body. It was made very clear that chambering at the hip would get you a hit to the face.

I have also heard of the practice of publicly teaching one thing and privately another. It's where a lot of the secrecy comes from. Like you, I get it 100%. No one wants to teach secrets to people occupying their land after a war. That said, like you get at, why continue now? Especially outside of Japan. There's no reason that Coffman and Gagne couldn't have taught my instructor and his class everything up front. I get the desire to maintain some mysticism and tradition, but in the information age you also run the risk of us finding it somewhere else. One of my peers would constantly scour the internet for more information and our instructor always had to correct him about the differences. It just seems easier to have a database up front.

[Miick 11]

My thoughts on Dillman aside, the punching thing is familiar. It was always treated as a warm up with us though. Our punching drills (which were done during the "40 basics") were always just about warming up the body. It was made very clear that chambering at the hip would get you a hit to the face.

I have also heard of the practice of publicly teaching one thing and privately another. It's where a lot of the secrecy comes from. Like you, I get it 100%. No one wants to teach secrets to people occupying their land after a war. That said, like you get at, why continue now? Especially outside of Japan. There's no reason that Coffman and Gagne couldn't have taught my instructor and his class everything up front. I get the desire to maintain some mysticism and tradition, but in the information age you also run the risk of us finding it somewhere else. One of my peers would constantly scour the internet for more information and our instructor always had to correct him about the differences. It just seems easier to have a database up front.

Well, I am mystified ; " Do this exercise , and be to clear , if you do it in a self defense or sparring situation , you will be ht in the face . "

errrm wot ?

--------

I was thinking you might comment on the whole new approach of a different technique / application I just outlined that exists inside Matsamura seito shorin ryu .

I cant really see the point of it anymore , or putting it 'up front' or having a data base, as apparently people are not interested or do not care about it any more .

Even when its explained or demonstrated .

I'm out .

[aurik]

As a Uechi-Ryu stylist, this answer is easy -- Sanchin. We have a mantra, "Everything goes back to Sanchin". It is the foundation of our style - our kata are practiced almost completely in Sanchin stance, and we are taught that whenever we strike, to bring the hand back to one of our kimae (which are all based on sanchin).

We only have 8 katas, but Sanchin is by far the most important.

[ryanryu]

Seipai! My favorite Goju-ryu kata, very different from the ones before. I love the whipping, snapping, slamming techniques, the complex turns, and all the two-armed movements. For some reason, I've found it an easier kata to practice the hard/soft transitions you want in Goju. It's a kata that made me look at my other kata differently.

[username19853]

It’s hard for me to choose between Naihanchi Sho and Passai (Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu here). I couldn’t wait to learn Naihanchi as a white belt because it looked so cool. When I finally learned it, it felt as cool as it looks. It has that “mystical” feel to it, yet the applications are realistic and fun.

On the other hand, I learned Passai from Takeshi Tamaki Sensei and Masahiko Tokashiki Sensei during my trip to Okinawa. That kata is always going to be very special to me for that reason.