Rank Structure

[KC1996]

Apologies if this is a silly questions, but how does karate rank/seniority structure work once you become a black belt?

I understand that the higher rank black belt is senior...a.k.a a nidan is more senior than a shodan, but what about situations where two people are the same rank? How do you determine who is senior?

[ineluki]

, but what about situations where two people are the same rank? How do you determine who is senior?

I don't think there is some kind of ISO-standard for this...

Those who do obsess over such trivialites probably use (like the military) the date of the last promotion/time in rank.

Those who are grown up and mature should not care...

[Karate_John]

As ineluki said, there is no standard. But it's common particularly in the US to go by the military style time in grade.

The un-written rule in my club, is whoever was called up for promotion first, then time in grade, then visiting students.

[KC1996]

Thanks ineluki for your opinion on rank structure, but that wasn't what I was asking for.

There are a good number of dojos that do indeed obsess (whether one likes it or not) over such things and I was genuinely asking how different dojos view this aspect of their art. I also realize that it's not a standardized format and will differ depending on the organization and style of karate.

[Shorin_son_goju_father]

In my school if two students were the same rank we didn't look at seniority. The only time it matter was in line-up in which case the elder practitioner

[sensei8]

If seniority has to be established between same Dan ranks, then there's the tenure to consider; Date of when a student began training AS WELL as the date of when a student earned said Dan rank. For us at the SKKA, each and every member of its student body has a Hard Card on file with anything and everything that relates to tenure and the like.

For example, within the SKKA, there are several Hachidans. So, we reference the Hard Card to find out of the Hachidans who's the most senior. And in that, Greg and I are both Hachidans, but from the outside looking inside, one wouldn't know, for sure, who's the most senior Dan rank between us. But if one looked at our Hard Cards, they'd discover that I started 6 months before Greg did, therefore, I was Senior to his Sempai within our relationship on the floor.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The most widespread way of determining who is senior between equal ranks is whoever was promoted first. If two shodans were awarded the same month or year, then age is used. Every school uses this or a slight variation of it

[Nidan Melbourne]

At my dojo we look at who received their grade first, if attained grade on the same day then whoever is older.

Out of myself and the 5 other Nidans (total 6 Nidans), i rank second in senority.

[ineluki]

FWIW there is an old thread about it as well:

http://www.karateforums.com/seniority-vt33166.html

[JR 137]

At my dojo we have 3 yondans that were promoted together. They started training around the same time, with only a few months separating each of them. They line up now as they always have, every time - by when they started. When the first one came in as a white belt, he was at the far left of the line. When the next one started a month or so later, he lined up on the far left. When the third started a week later, he was at the far left. 20 odd years later, the line has shifted but they still line up where they have since day one (relative to each other). Same goes for all ranks within the dojo.

When visiting honbu for an event or class it generally goes by apparent age, otherwise it would take quite some time for everyone to ask who's been around longer or spent more time in rank.

Within our dojo is where things can get a bit complicated. We line up by dan/kyu grade. Within each grade, we line up by time in grade. But adults line up ahead of juniors per grade. So, if I'm a 4th kyu adult, I line up behind all 3rd kyus. If a 3rd kyu junior was promoted 6 months ago, and I promoted to 3rd yesterday, I line up ahead of the 3rd kyu junior. We're both 3rd kyus, but I'm an adult. When the 3rd kyu junior gets promoted to 2nd kyu, he/she will line up ahead of me (he/she'll be a 2nd kyu).

There was a group of juniors who all started before me and were higher grades than me. Over the course of time, I caught up to them. I lined up behind them, as they were in rank 3 months longer than I was. My CI told us that I line up ahead of them because I'm an adult. We didn't realize the policy, nor did anyone make any issue of it. If everyone promotes when they're supposed to, they'll promote ahead of me, and will then line up ahead of me. Then I'll promote 3 months later and we'll flip-flop in line again.

2 adults equal in rank will line up by time in grade. If time is equal, then by start date. If they started the same day, then wherever they lined up on the first day.

Here's another curveball - a junior 2nd kyu lines up ahead of an adult 3rd kyu. Said junior is promoted to adult 3rd kyu (he/she becomes adult age), and now lines up behind the initial adult 3rd kyu. Why? Time in current grade. It just happened a few weeks ago in my dojo.