The original MMA

[MatsuShinshii]

I hear other instructors often complain about the fact that their students or potential students are being lost to MMA gyms.

I find this somewhat funny being that Karate was a MMA before anyone ever thought to invent the name MMA.

I am curious, how many instructors teach their students Kata? These are a mixture of Chinese Quan from seveal styles of Quan Fa (Gung Fu), Okinawan Di/Ti (Te for the Japanese style Karate) and Siamese boxing.

How many instructors teach Torite (Tuite)? This is a mixture of the indigenous art of Ti and Chin Na (Qin Na).

How many instructors teach Tegumi? This is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Okinawan Sumo which evolved based on influences from other grappling arts from China and Japan.

How many instructors teach Kyusho? This comes from Quan Fa styles developed over centuries of Chinese medicine and study of the body and created into a combative form found within the Bubishi.

The point is, Karate if studied as intended, and unlocked though it's Bunkai, has an answer to almost every attack that can be thrown.

Torite teaches submissions, joint locks, chocks, dirty tricks, traps, etc., Tegumi teaches throws, take downs and grappling, Kyusho teaches us vital targets and how to capitalize on weaknesses of our opponents and how to overcome with minimal force. Couple this with a striking and kicking art, and it's an answer to these complaints about students fleeing to learn MMA.

I find nothing wrong with MMA and would not have an issue with students of mine wanting to learn it. I love watching it and love to find the similarities in it. However I do not understand the thought of students leaving a Karate Dojo to learn something that is contained within their own art unless their instructor does not understand this or was never taught this.

What are your thoughts? Do you teach the old ways (the Jutsu)?

[Nidan Melbourne]

I hear other instructors often complain about the fact that their students or potential students are being lost to MMA gyms.

I find this somewhat funny being that Karate was a MMA before anyone ever thought to invent the name MMA.

I am curious, how many instructors teach their students Kata? These are a mixture of Chinese Quan from seveal styles of Quan Fa (Gung Fu), Okinawan Di/Ti (Te for the Japanese style Karate) and Siamese boxing.

How many instructors teach Torite (Tuite)? This is a mixture of the indigenous art of Ti and Chin Na (Qin Na).

How many instructors teach Tegumi? This is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Okinawan Sumo which evolved based on influences from other grappling arts from China and Japan.

How many instructors teach Kyusho? This comes from Quan Fa styles developed over centuries of Chinese medicine and study of the body and created into a combative form found within the Bubishi.

The point is, Karate if studied as intended, and unlocked though it's Bunkai, has an answer to almost every attack that can be thrown.

Torite teaches submissions, joint locks, chocks, dirty tricks, traps, etc., Tegumi teaches throws, take downs and grappling, Kyusho teaches us vital targets and how to capitalize on weaknesses of our opponents and how to overcome with minimal force. Couple this with a striking and kicking art, and it's an answer to these complaints about students fleeing to learn MMA.

I find nothing wrong with MMA and would not have an issue with students of mine wanting to learn it. I love watching it and love to find the similarities in it. However I do not understand the thought of students leaving a Karate Dojo to learn something that is contained within their own art unless their instructor does not understand this or was never taught this.

What are your thoughts? Do you teach the old ways (the Jutsu)?

I can understand why some instructors would complain about losing students to MMA Gyms. But at the same time what are those schools offering that these instructors aren't? People often will move because the other school might offer more for the money that they are paying.

Honestly I don't worry about losing potential members, because often they don't feel like they fit in with the culture at the school.

At my dojo, yes we primarily teach Karate; but also we do dabble in other martial arts to give students exposure to those respective arts. But NEVER teach anything that we haven't done previously and are up to date with.

I am curious, how many instructors teach their students Kata? These are a mixture of Chinese Quan from seveal styles of Quan Fa (Gung Fu), Okinawan Di/Ti (Te for the Japanese style Karate) and Siamese boxing.

Yes my school teaches Kata, as they do give you very good ideas and concepts for Kumite and Self-Defense. Because IMHO it is an integral part of Karate, as it is a fundemental pillar of the Martial Art itself.

How many instructors teach Torite (Tuite)? This is a mixture of the indigenous art of Ti and Chin Na (Qin Na).

Yes we teach this, but primarily towards our more senior students; as we are also concerned about the physiological development of our students and the maturity required to be attentive to ensure they don't injure their training partner.

How many instructors teach Tegumi? This is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Okinawan Sumo which evolved based on influences from other grappling arts from China and Japan.

We do indeed teach this, but depends on the number of students training that particular night.

How many instructors teach Kyusho? This comes from Quan Fa styles developed over centuries of Chinese medicine and study of the body and created into a combative form found within the Bubishi.

I honestly can't remember the last time we have practiced this form of training. But I do teach this form though with my students, because I feel like it is important to teach it.

Having a Physiology background, has it's advantages because I have a level of understanding of Biomechanics of Muscles, Joints etc and their limits and what they can and can't do. This is also the same for understanding of easy targets when having to defend yourself, along with the nerve clusters throughout the body.

[sensei8]

Our style, Shindokan Saitou-ryu teaches everything that your OP speaks towards, with Tuite being at the top because, as our Soke taught us, "Shindokan is Tuite and Tuite is Shindokan; can't separate them".

[ninjanurse]

My karate Sensei was fond of saying, "Don't worry, it's all in there."

[Bulltahr]

MMA and crossfit is riding a wave of popularity at the moment. 20 years ago it was Thai kick boxing that was "flavour of the month".

MMA is appealing to young people because it has an image of being "tough", the girls, the money (maybe lol..), fitness etc, a very successful marketing campaign by UFC and the others, merchandising etc.

Personally, the things that attract me to traditional martial arts are simply not provided by MMA type gyms.

[MatsuShinshii]

You all have basically mirrored my thoughts on this subject.

I have a hard time understanding why some schools have strayed away from teaching what I consider the very foundation of the art.

For me the Kata is the art. When I began we did not stand in a line and perform Kihon drills. We practiced Kata. Back then they would wait until you had reached a specific rank before teaching you the "hidden techniques" LOL! (unfortunately some think these are hidden because they are not taught) But it would all tie together and you would quickly realize that everything you ever needed to deal with almost any situation was contained within the Kata.

Now we are like most and have Kihon drills. However we still teach Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho as the student learns the Kata and as a part of the Kata.

The student learns to break down the Kata into it's various techniques and to utilize them based on the teachings handed down from the founder. Once they have a good grasp on the fundamentals and original intent they can then analyze these techniques and apply them to other scenario's.

I have yet to find a situation that our Kata and it's Bunkai do not address.

Having said that I do not feel that I would ever need to join a MMA gym to learn what can be found within the Kata.

Nothing against MMA, just do not understand why instructors would loose students to MMA gyms if they are teaching the core content of their system. No reason to look elsewhere IMHO.

[Bruisbe]

Once we feel that we have gotten a kata down perfectly, our Sensi will sometimes ask us to run the kata backwards from end to start. This forces us to "relearn" the techniques and have a deeper understanding of what/why the moves are used.

Another fun and interesting drill that we use are with our Ippon/Taezu waza. We will spend some time running through each ippon/taezu that we know and then have a partner attack and we modify it to fit in how we would actually do it in a fight.

For example:

Ippon #1 in Shuri-Ryu is:

Step back with right foot into a left Zen (Front stance) and perform a left high block.

Right kick to the groin and step forward into a right Zen with a right knife hand to the opponents left clavical.

Left punch to solarplex

Right punch to solarplex

Step back into a left Zen and perform a left low block.

However in reality we would never fight like that, however the ippons allow up to build up power with the move. So we are now to interpret the ippon into something more comfortable with us.

For Example, I did this one last night

Left High block and wrapped my arm around his in sort of an arm bar

Stepped in with a knee to the stomach

Since the previous move would cause the opponent to bend over my knife hand would be delivered to the back of the neck

The 2 punches would come from my right hand since I am still holding the opponent with my left arm and the punches would be delivered to the temple and eliminating the opponent.

Step out to guard yourself.

I used all of the same concepts of ippon #1, however modified them to fit my fighting style.

[jaypo]

Since we're based mainly in Shorin Ryu, my Sensei teaches most of it. I have another instructor that I train Kyusho with specifically, and it ties in perfectly. Since my knees and back are beginning to show their age, I'm not focusing on perfecting the "look" of my katas. I'm focusing on the absolutely devistating techniques in them! I love incorporating the joint locks, throws, and kyusho into the simplest of katas to show the younger students that no matter how basic a technique or kata looks, "it's all in there!"

[Nidan Melbourne]

You all have basically mirrored my thoughts on this subject.

I have a hard time understanding why some schools have strayed away from teaching what I consider the very foundation of the art.

I believe this occurs because of either the demand for certain things or because they mainly want to attract more students and allow them to progress easier.

For me the Kata is the art. When I began we did not stand in a line and perform Kihon drills. We practiced Kata. Back then they would wait until you had reached a specific rank before teaching you the "hidden techniques" LOL! (unfortunately some think these are hidden because they are not taught) But it would all tie together and you would quickly realize that everything you ever needed to deal with almost any situation was contained within the Kata.

Kata is always a valuable tool especially when working kihon. "Hidden Techniques" are the sneaky little buggers you know the technique until your sensei mentions something (even if irrelevant) then it clicks and it works so much better.

Nothing against MMA, just do not understand why instructors would loose students to MMA gyms if they are teaching the core content of their system. No reason to look elsewhere IMHO.

I think it is because of the style and the instructors aren't updating or keeping the drills current. What i mean is that you may teach say Chatanyara Kusanku but not teach the Bunkai of a Practical more Modern Viewpoint of it.

Once we feel that we have gotten a kata down perfectly, our Sensi will sometimes ask us to run the kata backwards from end to start. This forces us to "relearn" the techniques and have a deeper understanding of what/why the moves are used.

That is always a fun one to do, especially where you actually have to think about what your doing. We do it backwards and sometimes in reverse; Instead of stepping first with the right foot you step with the left foot.

[wildbourgman]

MatsuShinshii wrote: I have a hard time understanding why some schools have strayed away from teaching what I consider the very foundation of the art.

My answer from what I've read and even seen to a certain extent is that it didn't happen overnight and it happened for many possible reasons. Once Karate got to Japan from Okinawa it was rebuilt to market it to the Japanese. It continued to be altered and adjusted until most of the mixed martial arts aspects of Okinawan karate were all but lost to anyone that wasn't associated with Okinawan karate. For instance would the Founder of Wado Ryu who had trained in Shotokan and Jujitsu feel the need to break off and blend the two arts into Wado Ryu if he had extensive training in Okinawan tuite? I don't know for sure, but I think not.

MatsuShinshii wrote:

 

Nothing against MMA, just do not understand why instructors would loose students to MMA gyms if they are teaching the core content of their system. No reason to look elsewhere IMHO.

I come from a Shotokan background and I can tell you that I know a few instructors that often complain about this very topic. Some systems core content today is not what it was decades ago. Shotokan, Tang So do and Tae Kwon Do's stand up striking can be extremely strong, but let grappling and ground work come into the picture and they fall apart quickly. Stand up and striking is the core content of these arts. Mixed martial arts UFC style training seems to offer the whole package, because Karate specialized toward the striking aspect of the art. That is a problem for many modern karate styles.

I really believe this is where old school Okinawan Karate and even later styles like Wado Ryu can save the day. In the big picture you have to be able to make money to stay viable, you have to be marketable to fill a dojo, and you have to provide your customer with effective skills and a proven level of competency in order to be marketable and eventually make money. For the purest that doesn't think money and marketing makes a difference well you can't spread your knowledge to an empty dojo that can't afford the rent.

That's where the believers in karate like myself have to spread the word and give students that would otherwise go to modern MMA schools a different option, but we have to make that option effective and competitive with and against MMA. How exactly do we do that ?