Refusal To Bow!!

[sensei8]

Well, it's always great to be back in my old stomping grounds, even if it's more official, than it is personal, even though I'll be visiting some old stomping grounds while I'm at the Hombu these 3 weeks for our Annual Testing Cycle.

This week has me approving the logistics of the event, swearing in new Certified Testers, and finalizing preparations, as well as teaching. Last two week, well, for the most part, I'll be the Arbitrator of the event as well as Chairing the Testing Panel for Godans and up. Normally, we've no Arbitrators, but because of the size of candidates, we feel that it would be best to have one. Normally, we've half or less than what we've this year. Plus, we've a huge amount of JBB's testing for their Shodan, and this has never happened in the Hombu's history. I've a special heart for JBB's because I was one for 5 long, long years.

We've a extremely large approved group this year...1,003 testing candidates, which is approximately 10% of our total network student body!! This is only the 3rd time in our Hombu's history that this has occurred since the Hombu's opening back in 1957. Btw, we've an adequate amount of Certified Testers, and then some.

In order to accommodate so many, and to do them justice, we've had to open the 2nd floor, and we've 20 testing areas on both the main dojo as well as the upstairs dojo, for a total of 40 testing areas...that works out to be about 25 testing candidates per testing area.

That's a brief update, as to what I'm up to these 3 weeks. So, if you don't hear from me much during weeks 2 and 3, you'll know why.

NOW...THE REASON FOR THIS THREAD/TOPIC...

It has been brought to my attention that the Hombu has 3 students of 10th Kyu that refuse to bow! Why? Bowing is against their religious beliefs!!

They refuse to bow...

1) Entering either training floor.

2) Exiting either training floor.

3) Whenever they're addressing or being addressed by any Black Belt.

4) Whenever they're addressing or being addressed by any Sempai.

5) At the beginning of said Kata.

6) At the conclusion of said Kata.

They've been denied by the Hombu to test at this up and coming Annual Testing Cycle for those reasons alone...REFUSING TO BOW!! However, it's written up with some nice fancy words in their amendment cards that are attached to their Hard Cards for legal purposes.

My first question to the Testing Department, which oversees any and all testing cycles, both in-house and throughout the SKKA network, was...

Other than the bowing incidents, how's their techniques?? According to the CI of the Hombu, their techniques are where one would expect for them only being a 10th Kyu.

OK...let me visit, no, let me teach that class and we'll speak directly after that class.

CLASS WENT WITHOUT A HITCH!!

I returned to that department to give them my official report...Had it been me, I would've approved all 3 of them to attend this years Annual Testing Cycle BASED ON THEIR TECHNIQUES, and my score cards for all 3 of them would've reflected that as well.

These 3 haven't missed any class times, they're always on time, they stay late to help clean, they're gi's are always clean, they're always respectful, they're always serious when on the floor, and they're always putting in 100% effort at all times. They just won't bow, and they won't bow to anybody or for anybody, not now, not then, not ever!!

Soke, although, would've supported the Testing Department's findings in totality. Which is no surprise because I'm sure, he's rolling over in his grave right now, as is Dai-Soke. They both were adamant for this type of protocol at all times, ESPECIALLY ON THE FLOOR!!

I asked Greg, our Kancho, and Hombu CI, about this and he reminded me that Soke and/or Dai-Soke would've expelled all 3 of them because it would've been a direct disrespectful thing to do so...refuse to bow!! I asked Greg, about his opinion concerning their techniques and the like. Greg has no problem with their techniques at all, and he too, would reflect that on his own score cards. Greg also reminded me that if any of the 3 of them had passed the testing cycle, and seeing how strict the awards ceremony is performed, any of them might've, by the act of them refusing to bow, disrupted the ceremony.

I also asked Greg, if the only reason for their not being approved to attend this years Annual Testing Cycle is their refusal to bow, and knowing how Soke and Dai-Soke would've reacted, then why are the 3 of them still part of the student body?? Why haven't you expelled them??

Greg had no answer that satisfied me at all!!

I submitted an Amendment of Conclusion to the Testing Department to be considered; this is my only avenue to pursue. If the Testing Department upholds their original findings, then I'll have to take my Amendment of Conclusion to the Administrative Department for their ruling. However the Administrative Department rules, that ends any other possible course of consideration, whether it be Approved or Denial.

1) Have any of you ever encountered this?

 

2) If so, How did you bring it to conclusion?

 

3) If not, what do you think that you might do or consider?

 

4) What would you avoid?

Your thoughts, please!!

[Lupin1]

I've never encountered it.

I personally believe a refusal to bow due to religious beliefs is more a misunderstanding of what bowing in the martial arts is and what it represents, but I would never question anyone who stated it was against their religion and I would respect their beliefs.

I would simply excuse them from bowing.

Bowing isn't a necessary part of the martial arts. They can still learn to be effective martial artists without bowing and it's easy enough to make accommodations for them by letting them shake hands with their partners or give a verbal acknowledgement of thanks and respect when one would normally bow.

I certainly wouldn't hold them back from testing or expel them because of it.

[mushybees]

I don't understand how bowing can conflict with someone's religious beliefs. It isn't an act of worship, it's an act of respect.

[DWx]

Wow. Well I've never come across this before but I'll throw my 2 cents out there:

First of all, has anyone actually sat down with them and had a chat to explain the significance of bowing and how it need not contradict any religious beliefs they may have? I think a lot of people have a misconception that bowing means subservience or worship. It might be that they just need someone to take the time to explain that it is more along the lines of a handshake or salute rather than worship of anything. Maybe you even have someone of the same (or related) denomination who could discuss it in greater detail with them.

I wonder also if they use the right titles and honorifics in the dojo? Because to me at least if they have an issue with bowing they might also have an issue with calling someone "Shihan" or "Kaicho"?

Personally I think it's good to be inclusive and accommodating of people's personal beliefs where possible. But bowing is part and parcel of a lot of Martial Arts so I would be asking the question of whether Shindokan Karate is the right thing for them.

[mazzybear]

I find this bizarre to say the least, are they citing "religious reasons" so as not to be questioned on why they won't bow? Bowing has no religious significance as far as I know, it's purely a showing of respect, no? I think I read somewhere, back in feudal times it was to show the person you were bowing to the back of your neck, letting them see you had no weapons and to set them at ease. My instructor keeps things very informal, he doesn't like to be called Sensei, we don't bow on entering or leaving the Dojo, or to the black belts or Sempai (which nobody has that title anyway, no Sensei, no Sempai I guess) but we do bow on commencing and completing a Kata, when doing any Ohyo/Kihon and also before and after sparring. At the end of the class we form two lines (1 black belts and one Kyu grades) facing one and other and bow, that way everyone is bowing to one and other. But like I said this is my instructors call, if he wanted it more formal, then that's how it would be. His Dojo, his choice.

I might be inclined to question these guys further, to get to the bottom of it, like I said, I don't buy their "religious reasons" excuse. Is the instructor happy enough to train them without them showing him the respect of bowing to him, or anyone else for that matter? If so by all means let them keep training but, let them know, until they start bowing, they won't be invited to any testing cycle, EVER. Which means they'll be 10th Kyu until eternity, no matter how on point their skills are. Would they be willing to show more respect if they knew they could not advance? Sure, they might leave but, it saves the CI a job from having to expel them.

One phrase keeps springing to mind here,

When in Rome...........

Mo.

Mo.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The instructor decides who is and is not welcome and is never, ever under any obligation to teach anyone. Rules and protocol are for everyone without exceptions of any sort, special treatment or accommodation. If one starts making them for some, one must make them for all and it never ends.

These students should be told in no uncertain terms that they either follow the rules and protocol like everybody else or leave! This should be done with everyone present so that it is clear for all who wish to train there.

Some might be quick to scream and whine about discrimination, but it is not a point to argue. Those who do not agree with treating everyone fairly and equally are free to remove themselves so that those who do may return to the business of training.

[The Pred]

In my opinion bowing is like shaking hands. That being said, does your hombu have a center piece like some dojos have where students bow too?

[JR 137]

I'm kind of mixed on this one. I can't speak for any dojo other than what I've seen in the dojos I've been a student in and associated dojos through the organizations I've been a part of...

We've allowed women to cover their hair in religious garb (not 100% sure, but possibly Hindu?)

We've allowed Seik men to wear their turbans

Both of these contradict regular protocol

Sensei8, you stated you did and do not bow to shinzen due to your Christian beliefs. I promise I'm not calling you out!

I would not do anything in the dojo that contradicts my religious beliefs. If there was issue, and I was given the option to conform or leave, I'd find a new dojo.

It doesn't matter what we perceive in the religious vs not religious argument; it's all in the eye of the beholder. If it's truly a religious thing for them and not fabricated, no amount of reasoning will change it.

Are they literally following every other piece of protocol? Are they genuinely showing the respect that they should minus the physical act of bowing?

Part of me says you could be losing a great student because of the refusal of an outward action that they express in other ways. The other part of me asks what type of precedent does it set.

Whatever your feelings are, check with your legal team. In the real world, you should have the right to refuse service to anyone. In the legal world??? Localities have different laws. Not to mention, is there a contract present? If so, what are your contractual obligations?

But the biggest question has to be why is this an issue all of a sudden? Shouldn't it have been settled before the students' first class? If they were told it was allowed, you (the honbu) made your bed. If the students claimed religious reasons after the fact, then it's on them. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

[Bulltahr]

Sounds like they are mis-informed of what bowing actually means. One would assume they won't shake hands either or address older people as "sir" or "madam" either.

If they cannot accept that there are no religious conatations (sp) to the act of bowing in this situation then I would send them home, no matter how good a student they may be.

What might happen when they get to a kata like Pinan/Heinan (Peace and harmony), or some other kata that may be mis-construed as being "against their beliefs". Meditation would also likely be a big hurdle in the case. Perhaps a chat with a senior member that has a solid religious background might resolve things.....

It would be a shame to lose such diligent students over a mis-conception...

[tubby]

In my opinion bowing is like shaking hands. That being said, does your hombu have a center piece like some dojos have where students bow too?

To me its like always addressing the referee as sir, there is no religious connotation at all, merely respect for the role. Of course some may argue that the referee is the devil when their team loses.

I have seen it come up a couple of times in kung fu schools where bowing upon entry is to a Buddhist shrine, and they have never had any issue with students who prefer not to do that, but they still bow to instructors and at the start/end of class.