The Relationship Between Karate and White Crane

[Wastelander]

Hello, everyone!

This is a topic that I have a tendency to avoid, but it recently came up in a conversation I had with a fairly high ranking member in my organization, and I wanted to put it to the sounding board here at KF.

Many karate people have a tendency to, at some point in their journey, research the origin of their art. Some stop at the founder of their organization, some go back to the early 1900's, when karate became public. Others, however, want to go back as far as they can, and that is where things become foggy. I have seen countless people on this search be told that White Crane is the origin of karate, or that the real secret to good karate is found in White Crane.

I have my own opinions on this, but I want to see what the folks here have to say on the matter, first. Do you think that White Crane is the source of all karate? Some karate? None? How much of an impact do you think it had on the development of karate? Do you think that "White Crane" kata found in karate systems are links to this mysterious past?

I look forward to hearing what people have to say. Thank you for your time!

[wildbourgman]

Just looking at the techniques and the kata (Sanchin and Hakutsuru) it sure appears that White crane was a significant contributor to Karate as a whole but it's much more pronounced in Okinawan styles.

This history that I've read and been told show this to be the case, but common sense tells me that Okinawa's connection to China would have made it very possible to have this type of cross cultural exchange.

Regardless of rock solid Historical proof style comparison says it all. There are a few documentaries that make this very clear.

[usualtraveler]

As far as I know, there were a lot of trading happening between Okinawa and mainland China, and some of those Chinese traders teached Okinawians.

And before that, those arts came to China from India.

the real secret to good karate is found in White Crane

Heh, what's good karate then? Does Yahara or Kagawa have good karate, and does it resemble kung fu in any way? Did Oyama had good karate? The real secret to good whatever is lifetime of hard work, good training methodology and sound basic principles. This "real secret" talk reminds me of that book The Secret, some people are just prone to buying stuff like that.

[JR 137]

A lot of the early karateka reportedly studied White Crane Kung Fu (along with other forms of Kung fu), and adapted the principles to mould their style of karate. Miyagi Chojun reportedly studied some white crane...

"Tensho was influenced by the White Crane kata Ryokushu, which he learned from his long-time friend Gokenki."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chōjun_Miyagi

Many of the founders of karate studied under Chinese Kung Fu masters; some in China, some in Okinawa. White Crane comes up quite often, and possibly more often than any other style, but it's not the only one.

As usualtraveler said, what is "good karate?" I think understanding the principles of the systems that influenced karate definitely helps one better understand their current system, but so does understanding principles of seemingly unrelated systems.

[Wastelander]

Thank you for the input, everyone!

There is absolutely a connection between verious Crane styles and Naha-Te styles of karate--especially Goju-Ryu, due to Miyagi Chojun's connection to Gokenki. Just comparing Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu, and Ryuei-Ryu to Crane styles makes that fairly evident, I feel. They also have written histories that support the connection. That said, I can't help but think that this connection tends to get stretched to incorporate ALL styles of karate. As a Shorin-Ryu practitioner, from all I have been able to find, there is nothing to suggest that Crane styles had much--if any--impact on the development of Shuri-Te systems of karate.

Personally, I believe that the proposed connections between Crane systems and Shuri-Te came later, and were especially promoted after the original Karate Kid film. The late 80's started a trend of all sorts of Hakutsuru kata coming out of the woodwork, with little to no legitimate origin, and these were often included in the curriculum of Shuri-Te lineage schools. This is the problem that I have with the proposed connection--it is absolutely there when talking about Naha-Te styles, but not when looking at Shuri-Te styles. Sure, there is going to be some overlap just due to the nature of fighting, but that's about it. With that in mind, I feel that the inclusion of Crane kata and history in Shuri-Te systems is disingenuous. What are your thoughts?

[Zaine]

The earliest mention of White Crane within Shuri-Te that I have been able to find comes from Matsumura Soken (or Bushi/Shuri). It seems that around 1830 he traveled to China and trained in the Shoalin style for some number of years, and brought White Crane into Shuri-Te in that manner. My source says that he brought back Hakutsuru with him and incorporated it into Shuri-Te, and also added Chinto.

Source: Okinawan: Island of Karate by George W. Alexander, PH.D

[sensei8]

Seeing that Karate came to Okinawa via China, I don't doubt the correlation between the two. After all, we'd kindred spirits; all of us, for the most part.

[JR 137]

I could see a game of 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon, err White Crane, in karate's current heads of state being quite possible.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Honestly i don't think it is the only source that karate has come from. Because we know Okinawa was a melting pot of all trade from various countries for centuries, so i personally feel like white crane had a strong influence and major origin but there would have been many other MA that could have influenced it.

[Karate_John]

Well in Goju ryu case we are told that Kanryo Higaonna studied white Crane under Ryu Ryuko/Xie Zhongxiang, So i have no doubt of the influence of it. But, as Nidan Melbourne said Okinawa was a melting pot. and the original Okinawan Te's have influences from elsewhere. and each "Master" Studied multiple arts.

With that said:

Do you think that White Crane is the source of all karate? No

Some karate?

Yes, influences on Naha-Te Styles.

How much of an impact do you think it had on the development of karate?

You can see quite a a few similarities in Kata, particularly in Naha-Te Styles.

Do you think that "White Crane" kata found in karate systems are links to this mysterious past?

It had influences, But I don't think it's the solo link to the past.