Goju ryu question

[kensei]

So, I have been racking the internet hours trying to answer a question that bugs and bothers me...and it really should not.....Im not even a Goju guy! In Shotokan the majority of organizations have a specific curriculum set up that all look the same...but in Goju it seems liek the very wildest of wests!

What are the order you learn your Kata in, and at what point is it based on yoru favorite Kata? Some groups have a set curriulum that goes right up to all 12 Kata and some seem to add Kata, others teach only the main kata (10 and eliminate the Geikisai Katas).

I always find it interesting to look at different styles, but this has me confused!

[Nidan Melbourne]

Every Goju-Ryu School will usually have Gekesai Ich & Ni, Saifa, Seeiunchin, Tensho, Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseru, Seipai, Shisochin, Kururunfa & Suparenpei.

Some schools will add the Taikyoku Kata (Jodan, Chudan, Gedan, Kake Uke, Mawashi Ich) prior to the Gekesai kata.

At my current school and previous school this is the order we do (we do more than the core 12):

White Belt: Taikyoku Jodan (Involves: Sanchin Dachi, Jodan Uke, Zenkutsu Dachi Jodan Tsuki)

Yellow Belt: Taikyoku Chudan (sanchin dachi chudan uke zenkutsu dachi chudan uke)

Orange Belt: Taikyoku Gedan (Shiko Dachi, Gedan Uke, shiko dachi gedan tsuki)

Red Belt: Taikyoku Kake (Sanchin Dachi Kake Uke, Mae Geri zenkutsu dachi shomen hiji ate)

Green Belt: Taikyoku Mawashi Ich (Sanchin Dachi Mawashi Uke, shikodachi mawashi hiji ate shomen uraken uchi gedan uke gedan tsuki)

Purple Belt: Gekesai Ich & Ni

Blue Belt: Saifa

Brown: seeiunchin

1st brown: Seeiunchin & some idea of Sanseru

Black: Sanseru & idea of seisan

Shodan: Sanseru & seisan (Must be competent in both)

Nidan: up to seipai (idea of seipai)

Sandan: Up to shisochin

yondan: up to kururunfa

Godan: up to and including suparenpei

[Wado Heretic]

My best theory, based on the research I have conducted, seems to suggest it depends on whether it is Japanese or Okinawan Goju-Ryu. Also, whether the founder of the particular branch was a student of Higoanna who then followed Miyagi, a student of Miyagi alone, or a student of one of Miyagi's students.

Gekisai Ni, is essentially Fukyugata Ichi and vice versa, as they were a collaborative effort devised rather late in Miyagi's life (1940 and he passed away in 1953). The timing should also be noted, as the kata would only be taught to war time students, and post-war students. It would have been absent in the knowledge base of even such luminaries of Japanese Karate such a Mabuni Kenwa. Furthermore, pre-war students who went their own way after their return will not have added this kata to their understanding of Goju-Ryu.

The greatest example of this would be Goju-Kai, or Japanese Goju-Ryu as some identify it, as founded by Yamaguchi Gogen. He did not continue his studies of the Goju-Ryu kata with Miyagi after the war, but with a student of Miyagi's. Furthermore, he developed his own variation of the Taikyoku kata, based on Funakoshi's, employing Goju-Ryu waza. As mentioned prior, some may use both Gekisai and Taikyoku, but in my experience most choose one or the other or use Taikyoku only with children.

Based on this theory; my best answer to the question would be that it is like Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Like Parker; Miyagi continued to evolve his system up until his death, creating his own innovations or incorporating lessons learnt from his extensive research. Therefore, like Parker's legacy, the curricula you encounter will depend on when the founder of the branch studied with Miyagi, and when they broke away from Miyagi.

[Nidan Melbourne]

My best theory, based on the research I have conducted, seems to suggest it depends on whether it is Japanese or Okinawan Goju-Ryu. Also, whether the founder of the particular branch was a student of Higoanna who then followed Miyagi, a student of Miyagi alone, or a student of one of Miyagi's students.

Gekisai Ni, is essentially Fukyugata Ichi and vice versa, as they were a collaborative effort devised rather late in Miyagi's life (1940 and he passed away in 1953). The timing should also be noted, as the kata would only be taught to war time students, and post-war students. It would have been absent in the knowledge base of even such luminaries of Japanese Karate such a Mabuni Kenwa. Furthermore, pre-war students who went their own way after their return will not have added this kata to their understanding of Goju-Ryu.

The greatest example of this would be Goju-Kai, or Japanese Goju-Ryu as some identify it, as founded by Yamaguchi Gogen. He did not continue his studies of the Goju-Ryu kata with Miyagi after the war, but with a student of Miyagi's. Furthermore, he developed his own variation of the Taikyoku kata, based on Funakoshi's, employing Goju-Ryu waza. As mentioned prior, some may use both Gekisai and Taikyoku, but in my experience most choose one or the other or use Taikyoku only with children.

Based on this theory; my best answer to the question would be that it is like Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Like Parker; Miyagi continued to evolve his system up until his death, creating his own innovations or incorporating lessons learnt from his extensive research. Therefore, like Parker's legacy, the curricula you encounter will depend on when the founder of the branch studied with Miyagi, and when they broke away from Miyagi.

Even though there are two branches of Goju-Ryu Karate-do (Goju-Ryu & Goju-Kai) Majority of the stuff is the same.

From my knowledge since Yamaguchi Sensei was named the successor of Goju-Ryu created the Goju-Kai branch of the style. Miyagi Sensei formalised the style of Goju.

Miyagi sensei trained under Higoanna Kanryo sensei in the style of Naha-Te up until the latters death.

So there was no real major split between the two, although debate is still up in the air. When the style began being taught in Japan, and Miyagi Sensei was still in Okinawa things would have been taught differently.

[Karate_John]

Even though there are two branches of Goju-Ryu Karate-do (Goju-Ryu & Goju-Kai) Majority of the stuff is the same.

From my knowledge since Yamaguchi Sensei was named the successor of Goju-Ryu created the Goju-Kai branch of the style. Miyagi Sensei formalised the style of Goju.

Miyagi sensei trained under Higoanna Kanryo sensei in the style of Naha-Te up until the latters death.

So there was no real major split between the two, although debate is still up in the air. When the style began being taught in Japan, and Miyagi Sensei was still in Okinawa things would have been taught differently.

This is all debatable of course, but in my own research, I'm not sure why karateka say Yamaguchi Sensei was named the successor... per Seikichi Toguchi there was no named successor. Meitoku Yagi was elected successor and "Chairman" of the Gojuryu Advancement Society and supposedly Gogen Yamaguchi was training under him at points after Goju kai was created. imo History is a fickle thing, we'll never really know.

I agree with Nidan Melbourne there was no real major split between the two, but smaller organizations off the main branches generally practice more then the core 12. and there is always differences between all organizations, particularly on the USA east coast as many are based off of USA Goju which has influences from Richard Kim and Masutatsu Oyama.

Are you Goju-Kai Nidan Melbourne? For some reason I was thinking you were Okinawan Goju-Ryu.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Even though there are two branches of Goju-Ryu Karate-do (Goju-Ryu & Goju-Kai) Majority of the stuff is the same.

From my knowledge since Yamaguchi Sensei was named the successor of Goju-Ryu created the Goju-Kai branch of the style. Miyagi Sensei formalised the style of Goju.

Miyagi sensei trained under Higoanna Kanryo sensei in the style of Naha-Te up until the latters death.

So there was no real major split between the two, although debate is still up in the air. When the style began being taught in Japan, and Miyagi Sensei was still in Okinawa things would have been taught differently.

This is all debatable of course, but in my own research, I'm not sure why karateka say Yamaguchi Sensei was named the successor... per Seikichi Toguchi there was no named successor. Meitoku Yagi was elected successor and "Chairman" of the Gojuryu Advancement Society and supposedly Gogen Yamaguchi was training under him at points after Goju kai was created. imo History is a fickle thing, we'll never really know.

I agree with Nidan Melbourne there was no real major split between the two, but smaller organizations off the main branches generally practice more then the core 12. and there is always differences between all organizations, particularly on the USA east coast as many are based off of USA Goju which has influences from Richard Kim and Masutatsu Oyama.

Are you Goju-Kai Nidan Melbourne? For some reason I was thinking you were Okinawan Goju-Ryu.

Both Karate_John. We are predominantly Goju-Ryu with some Goju-Kai concepts.

Goju-Kai was brought into Australia by Tino Ceberano and my former sensei trained under him but my sensei trained under a godan who trained in Goju-ryu and his sensei who was goju-kai

[andym]

At its core Goju Ryu contains twelve Kata, ten original Kata of Chinese origin plus the Gekisai pair of basic Kata. These were added to the original Kata in the 1940s .

This is the core on which all branches of Goju Ryu agree, and a sizeable proportion use purely these twelve Kata. Beyond this , some branches, associations, groups or schools have added more .

Goju Kai ; the Japanese branch, originally headed by Gogen Yamaguchi (1909-1989). He added a set of five Taikyoku Kata. These are introductory Kata, taught ahead of the Gekisai pair. Though they use the same name, and even Kanji (symbols) as Shotokan’s Karate’s Taikyoku Kata , they are unrelated. Plus he also devised an advanced Kata, Genkaku, which was added to Goju Kai’s syllabus.

The Shoreikan branch, founded by Seikichi Toguchi (1917-1998), added two Hookiyu Kata, again ahead of Gekisai . He also added a third version of Gekisai ( Dai San) . Along with two more pairs of Kata that follow on from Gekisai : Gekiha 1 and 2 and Kakuha 1 and 2 .

The Ishikawa branch added the advanced Kata, Tsuru-te, following the core Kata.

This leads us to the unfortunately named Fukyu group of Kata. Again these are introductory Kata taught ahead of the Gekisai pair of Kata. There are up to five of them used by differing branches. Some branches use just the first, or the first two of the set. The Meibukan branch is to my knowledge, the only one that uses all five. Meibukan, headed by the Yagi family, have also developed an additional five advanced Kata added to the core Kata syllabus . Uniquely, Meibukan have also maintained the practise of Naihanchi Kata.

THE ADDITIONAL KATA OF SOME GOJU RYU BRANCHES.

GOJU KAI.

TAIKYOKU JODAN

TAIKYOKU CHUDAN

TAIKYOKU GEDAN

TAIKYOKU KAKE UKE

TAIKYOKU MAWASHI UKE

THE CORE KATA

GENKAKU

 

SHOREIKAN .

HOOKIYU ICHI

HOOKIYU NI

GENISAI DAI ICHI

GENKISAI DAI NI

GEKISAI DAI SAN

KAKUHA ICHI

KAKUHA NI

ICHIKAWA.

GEKIHA

THE CORE KATA

TSURI-TE

MEIBUKAN .

FUKYU KATA

TEN-CHI

SEIRYU

BYAKKO

SHUJAKKU

GENBU

NAIHANCHI

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

So, I have been racking the internet hours trying to answer a question that bugs and bothers me...and it really should not.....Im not even a Goju guy! In Shotokan the majority of organizations have a specific curriculum set up that all look the same...but in Goju it seems liek the very wildest of wests!

What are the order you learn your Kata in, and at what point is it based on yoru favorite Kata? Some groups have a set curriulum that goes right up to all 12 Kata and some seem to add Kata, others teach only the main kata (10 and eliminate the Geikisai Katas).

I always find it interesting to look at different styles, but this has me confused!

Ha funny, I always perceived it the other way round: that Shotokan schools differ in their curriculum whereas Goju Ryu schools are more similar... I attributed that to the fact that Shotokan teaches more Kata (compared to Goju Ryu) so that, naturally, some Katas will be neglected based on the instructor's (conscious or unconscious) preferences. Maybe this is partly because I don't take the additional beginner's forms too serious and tend to ignore them....

On the other hand I have the impression that, keeping Kata aside, the curriculum (Kihon, Kumite, Bunkai, fitness) of schools of both styles vary a lot more depending on the school's orientation towards sport vs. self defense and much less so as a function of their style.

[kensei]

Ha funny, I always perceived it the other way round: that Shotokan schools differ in their curriculum whereas Goju Ryu schools are more similar... I attributed that to the fact that Shotokan teaches more Kata (compared to Goju Ryu) so that, naturally, some Katas will be neglected based on the instructor's (conscious or unconscious) preferences. Maybe this is partly because I don't take the additional beginner's forms too serious and tend to ignore them....

On the other hand I have the impression that, keeping Kata aside, the curriculum (Kihon, Kumite, Bunkai, fitness) of schools of both styles vary a lot more depending on the school's orientation towards sport vs. self defense and much less so as a function of their style.

I think I need to clarify. In shotokan you learn the first seven Kata in order ( Heian 1-5, Tekki 1 and Bassai Dai). and at Shodan we can select from any of the other Kata, it is highly suggested we learn the first 15 first however.

Now, having gone to countless Goju group web sites I note that some clubs/orgs suggest that you do specific Katas for each rank, but others dont mention this at all. Is their a standard curriculum for clubs based on rank. I am really mostly interested in the traditional 12 kata based systems and not the newere ones that tend to add Kata like Meibukan and other systems....it tends to confuse me a bit on a subject i am just slightly knowledgable about.

[cheesefrysamurai]

from what I have read, Yamaguchi sensei was not the heir to system, He was a student, not his disciple though he had Myagis blessing for the divergence.

Eichi Miyazato was his successor.

Okinawan (Miyagis) Goju Ryu is centered around and taught at the Jundokan. From what I understand, Higaonna Sensei and Taira sensei both were formally with the Jundokan, left for political reasons, and still claim to teach traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu as does the Jundokan.