Conditioning

[devil dog]

I am new to the forum. I have been training now for 36 years and have studied 7 Okinawan and Japanese arts. I am presently a Godan in Shorin Ryu.

I was talking with one of my friends who is a TKD instructor recently and was told by him that they do not condition their bodies.

I found this hard to believe because they practice breaking from what I know about it and believe they use this as a means of testing.

Why would they not condition the weapon they use?

He said that they do not use any form of conditioning including makiwara because it could injure the student.

I have been practicing Makiwara for as long as I've been in the arts. I have injured myself but mostly when I was trying to strike too hard or if I was not focused on the task at hand. Plus after a few years of practice it teaches you to strike correctly so you do not get hurt when striking and or breaking objects and can put full power behind every strike.

Do all of you condition in your arts and do you have arguments for or against conditioning?

I have a hard time understanding why you would have deshi practice tamashiwari and not practice hojo undo. It doesn't make sense to me. I would think you could injure yourself worse attempting a break without conditioning.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I'm a Nidan in Goju-Ryu karate and we do condition ourselves often. But is mostly outside class that we do it. But most of us senior grades do it in class as well so we can perform our techniques properly (without getting hurt) and our body gets stronger from it.

Our juniors don't condition as much as the adults, but they do a fair bit of cardio (both aerobic and anaerobic) and muscular conditioning.

[CredoTe]

As a Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu) practitioner, yes, I condition my body. Not just my striking surfaces (knuckles, elbows, knees, toes, etc), but my target areas so I can take shots to my body to a certain extent.

[Zaine]

I'm a Shodan in Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu and we conditioned frequently. The logic begind it was that there are so many times in the system when we get hit so that we can finish something so it just made sense (that was the reasoning my Sensei gave but as you know Shorin Ryu has a history of conditioning and there have been various reasons throughout history). For me conditioning is a must because as much as we don't want to get hit in a fight the odds say that we're going to get hit. We condition so that we can continue on defending ourselves regardless of being struck once or twice. Every instructor is different though. From what I understand TKD doesn't, as a general thing, condition but I have met TKD practitioners who do and I have visited TKD schools that do as well. Can it injure your students? Sure. However, it is the job of the instructor to monitor their students to ensure that everyone is being controlled and safe. Conditioning is built over time, not by wailing on each other once.

[bushido_man96]

I have never been a member of a school that did any extensive types of body conditioning for board breaking. I think working pads and bags can help build the body up over time, and it is a gradual process. I just don't think many people are interested in it like they were in the past.

[Wastelander]

Welcome to the forum! It's great to have such an experienced practitioner join us!

You can do breaks without conditioning, particularly if the breaks are easy and you don't do them often, but it's not a great idea. I was introduced to tai tanren (body conditioning) in Shuri-Ryu, but it has been much expanded since I started training in Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi), which is also when I was introduced to hojo undo from a strength perspective. These are key practices for practical karateka, in my opinion, but I also realize that not everyone trains for self defense/fighting purposes.

[sensei8]

Welcome to KF!!

YES...condition everything. Your mind and your body!! Short cuts are the quickest way to NOT do the MA; it takes time to nuture both the mind and the body!!

[devil dog]

Thank you for the welcomes.

I also studied Matsubayashi Ryu in high school but stopped when I joined the corps mostly because there were no MR dojo's.

I took up Matsumura Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu and Ryukyu Kempo over the years and all had conditioning to varying degrees.

In my mind conditioning is like Kata. It would not be Karate without it.

I understand his argument and respect him for his beliefs but sincerely think he is wrong.

I have injured myself early on in my study, mostly because I was goofing around, but I have not injured myself in the last 30+ years.

My favorite conditioning tool is the Makiwara. I believe from my experience that it not only conditions the striking surface but also trains the student to perform the strike correctly, proper body mechanics, and builds power and destructive force over time.

If a student is taught the correct technique they are able to build up over time and strike with more power until they can put their full force into every strike.

Pain (not injury) is a good teacher and a great motivator to perform your strikes correctly. If done properly you do not injure yourself.

We do not use breaking as a means of testing our students but rather as a confidence booster and a means by which the student can test his abilities to strike correctly.

I personally would not ask a student to perform Tamishiwari without the proper instruction and conditioning. IMHO this would be irresponsible.

I have just about every style of makiwara and they are in both the dojo and in my home. I train on them just about every day with out fail.

I am able to strike a solid surface with full power in my belief because of conditioning.

I look at it from a practical point of view. I do not condition to break boards. I condition so that I do not get injured while in the process of defending myself.

When I was a kid I remember one of my piers got into a fight and broke his hand and three of his knuckles because he hit the other guy in the head.

I think you are far more likely to get injured without proper conditioning than with. Just my 2 cents for what that is worth.

[Zaine]

My favorite conditioning tool is the Makiwara. I believe from my experience that it not only conditions the striking surface but also trains the student to perform the strike correctly, proper body mechanics, and builds power and destructive force over time.

If a student is taught the correct technique they are able to build up over time and strike with more power until they can put their full force into every strike.

I think you're on point here. When you use a makiwara you train yourself on the proper way to punch and increase your skill exponentially. I constantly recommend this tool to any body who identifies themselves as Martial Artists. It does more than just help us with proper technique, but when we hit a solid object we help our joint health. Punching the air is great but as you do it you wear down you joints from the extension. Punching something solid reduces the damage that you do to your body by throwing punches.

[devil dog]

Zaine, I couldn't agree more with you. I have bad joints from old sports injuries (knees and one elbo). I actually feel better after a session of makiwara training.

Was never sure why that was but after your explaination it does make sense.

I had never heard this before. The explainations of benifits have always been what I already knew from years of practice.

By using a makiwara the student learns the proper body alignment, proper angle, proper use of body mechanics (coming from the feet, through the hips, into the torso and extending out through the arm), and the proper way to meet the striking surface to the target.

If done inproperly the result is pain. Over years of training and hundreds of strikes in a session the student build confidence and begins to delive their full power into the strike. Once this is achieved it is almost impossible to strike incorrectly.

This is the main reason I brought up Tamishiwari (breaking). I can not imagine walking up to a target, let's say a couple of tiles (non-kiln dried) and striking it with enough force to break them without conditioning the striking surface first. Can you imagine hitting the air for years and then being asked to break something (hard target) for a test. Not me brother!

I was watching a program on TV I think sports science or something of that nature. They were explaining how the bone breaks down and fills in each time we condition that body part. Over time the bone becomes more dense and becomes harder to damage.

Simple logic tells us that if two objects meet one will give. If the target is stronger than your striking surface you will be the object that gives which translates to an injury.

Personally I think that conditioning so that I am not the object that gives is a good idea.