When a master?

[bushido_man96]

Marie Curie said:

Again- it depends on which definition of master you are using.

I don't believe it can be put any more clearly than this. Bushidoman96, if you wish to write on something, you must first define it. Every orginization has a definition of what their "masters" are and what they know. If any orginization gives the title of Shihan/ Master/ Pendakar or whatever, without a definition of what skills and qualities that person should posess, the title is meaningless.

If one, as several have already pointed out, defines master to mean perfect...or even near perfect...than it is something unachievable for all except God. And I know one thing for certian in life...I'm not God.

Perhaps your article could be one of comparitive research. You could do research on what major orginizations require for their "master" ranks and compare them from there. For example...I saw someone posted saying a person should be at least 25 yrs old. That seems kind of young to me. Most 25 year olds have lived very little life to be wise enough IMO. In the Kwanmuzendokai a person must be at least 35 before earning godan (the rank associated with Shihan in that orginization). I think an article of this nature would be extremely interesting.

Thanks

This is a very good point that you make. I think writing this paper would be very difficult. There is an article in this forum on one man's journey to becoming a master. I loved it. I may not need to say more.

[ps1]

I've read it. You're correct. It was very good.

[dook sau]

i beleive u become a master when u have nothing left to learn,but there is always something to learn soo........

[Montana]

I'm not sure exactly at what point our system considers you a "master". I'm thinking 7th Dan, maybe? Could be 6th. 

I'm glad I ran into this old topic. I've been to dozens of dojos to watch their classes, and lots of tournaments as a judge and referee. I've come across a LOT of "masters" during that time, many were in the 20's.

I'm sorry, but IMO, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for a 20-something year old to have mastered a martial art yet. Many of these "masters" I've met, I've had the opportunity to judge and ref their tournaments and gotten a front row seat to judge their forms. I've seen some pretty crappy technique, lack of power, lack of control, lack of literally everything that a "master" should possess.

[bushido_man96]

It's fitting that this thread was revived.  I'm preparing to test for my 5th dan coming up in December.  I'll have to write a paper for it, too.  I've been rolling over things in my mind to try to write about.  Perhaps this thread will provide the inspiration.

[KorroddyDude]

In my opinion, there's really no room to play semantics on the word "master" if your school has that as an official title.  If your school says a 5th dan is a master, then that's when you're a master.  By the way, I think titles like Master and Grand Master may be more of a Korean martial arts thing, as 5th dan in some Japanese arts confer the title of Renshi (which does not translate to "master").

"Master" in titles - whether in martial arts, among tradesmen, academic degrees - doesn't mean you know everything.  But it does imply a certain level of authority in the relevant subject.

Edited October 23 by KorroddyDude

[Wastelander]

I'm not fond of the term "master," at all, because it's such a loaded term in martial arts. In other disciplines, "master" level means that you are an expert, certainly, but in martial arts, people seem to feel like "master" means you have learned all there is to learn and are as good as it is possible to be, and that just isn't the case. That's why I tend to only refer to people as masters of an art until they have reached a truly remarkable level of skill and understanding, and usually have trained up to 8th-10th Dan (legitimately), or passed away.

That said, some people do reach a level like that at a much younger age and lower rank. Shimabukuro Eizo of Shobayashi-Ryu, for example, was the youngest person to be promoted to 10th Dan at the age of 34, and his peers at the time all agreed that was a legitimate ranking. My late Sensei was only a 5th Dan when he passed away at the age of 32, but most in the organization agreed he had the skill and understanding of a 7th or 8th Dan already, so if he wasn't already a master, he was well on his way. Kano Jigoro founded Judo at the age of 22, and many would consider him to have had a master's level of skill and understanding to do that.

[sensei8]

In Shindokan, we don't use the term "Master" in any given text or sub-text. Which is good because we've enough titles/labels to go around. I suppose our Shogo titles, Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi are the only titles that mean more than anything. Renshi meaning “polished expert” or “master instructor.” Kyoshi meaning "teacher". Hanshi meaning "exemplary teacher" or "master of masters". Renshi can utilize the term "master Instructor" and Hanshi can utilize the term "master of master" to describe themselves, if it floats their boat, but I prefer dropping the "master" handle due to the fact that I'm no "master" of anything because I'm always learning. Thankfully, we use "polished expert" for Renshi and "exemplary teacher" for Hanshi. Kyoshi seems to be the only Shogo title that's not full of itself by just being a "teacher".

 

[aurik]

We don't use the term English "master" very often.  We do have a number of well-defined instructor and shogo titles.  For example, one can earn the title of shidoin (apprentice instructor) at 3rd degree after completing a certain number of hours teaching under guidance of an instructor; this allows you to open a school relatively independently (but you still must nominally train under a shihan ).  Likewise, you can earn the shihan title (nominally "master instructor") at 5th degree, which allows you to teach independently without oversight.  We then have the shogo titles of renshi (generally awarded at 6th dan), kyoshi (awarded at 7th/8th dan), and hanshi (awarded at 9th/10th dan).  Again, we rarely use those terms; we generally refer to our CI just as sensei, and if there is another instructor teaching, I'll usually call them <name> sensei to differentiate from our CI.  The exception is our CI's dad, who we'll usually just refer to as hanshi.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I'm not a fan of the title master; as to me it indicates that the person has a level of mastery and abilityto work around all the different points and applications that could potentially exist. 

Look at Stephen Hawking; an PHD in his respective field, and he was still researching and learning.