Maintaining tradition Vs. Evolving your art?

[AngelaG]

I have previously posted something like this on my forum so apologies to anyone that posts over there but I was hoping for a bit more feedback on this.

 

We should all be looking for ways to improve and develop our art or we run the risk of becoming stagnant and being totally unable to adapt to new situations. We no longer live in feudal Okinawa or post-war Japan, and modern life brings with it new risks and trials. Thugs walk the streets with guns and knives and violent crime for items such as credit cards, mobile phones etc. is on the increase. There is a hazy line as to how much force a person can use in self-defence before they suddenly become the criminal. All these need to be taken into consideration when teaching a Martial Art for the purposes of self-defence.

 

However karate is also founded on tradition. For some, karate is more a way of life rather than a hobby, and the traditional aspect is far more important than the self-defence aspect. Modern life also brings with it a whole new set of stresses. For some going to the dojo to train is a massive stress reliever, it helps them forget about the rigours of every day life and escape from reality for a bit. Sometimes the escapism the dojo life brings is what is needed to help a person chill out at the end of the day. The traditional aspects such as bowing, respect to Sensei are good for instilling good character traits into children. It can build up respect, self-confidence, concentration amongst other qualities.

 

At what point does the need to keep learning and keep evolving conflict with the need to maintain the old traditions that karate is built on? At what point of change are you no longer doing anything that resembles karate? If a Shotokan dojo decides that maybe their stances don’t need to be quite as long, and perhaps they don’t need to spend that much on kata so they can spend more time on sparring, maybe terms should be in English and let’s discard of all that Oriental bowing, and the next minute there is a blurry line in what they are doing; is it Shotokan, is it TKD, is it kickboxing, is it Muay Thai? Are we being arrogant by changing an art that has been developed by the "masters"?

 

I find that people that do karate purely for self-defence reasons tend to have little tolerance for the other aspects of the art. I’ve seen on other forums people asking why we don’t just drop kata, or why do we do something else when it doesn’t help with self-defence. I like to think that there is a bit more to it than that, let’s keep the ART in Martial Arts. Karate should have a little more finesse than the average street fight. On one hand we don’t want to be bogged down in a mire of tradition, so that we can never move on, but on the other hand we need to be careful about preserving the integrity of our art.

 

There are people who dedicate their lives to rediscovering the lost aspects of old karate. If we change it too much we run the risk of having people in the future trying to work out what we dropped and reintegrate it into their syllabuses. Conversely we don’t want the future karateka to have not learnt anything more than we already do, it would be hoped that every generation more information and has evolved, in a positive way, from the previous one.

[italian_guy]

Very interesting post AngelaG.

 

I think that the problem that you rise has two solutions depending if is a student who rises this issue or if he is a head instructor or senior instructor, anyhow some quite high level expert.

 

If it a student you must decide what to do depending of what you want from MA. If you want pure self defence without any formal aspects there are lots of modern arts that teach you good self defence skills without any traditional aspects. The same if you are interested in the sporting competition or just as a physical discipline. If you are interested in the art as a whole with all its values and aspects you should choose a traditional martial art... even in the frame of traditional martial arts there are school were the tradition is strictly followed and school where the tradition (meaning both techniques and etiquette) is more relaxed. I practice in two schools... in my tai chi chuan school traditional etiquette is quite strict and also the training method is quite traditional, if you read the books that the founder of our school wrote in the mid 80s you see that very little have changed and that was already traditional Tai chi chuan.

 

In my karate school the etiquette is more relaxed we do all the bowing and the salutation but if you do show up in a training suit instead of your gi nobody will complain. Regarding the training method also is quite modern we don't do makiwara training (just heavy bag) and we don't practice katas all the times but still I think we learn traditional karate.

 

In conclusion I can say that from the student point of view the thing you can do is selecting the school that has the level of tradition you feel confortable with.

 

From the point of view of an Instructor you can choose if you like to stick to the traditional values or add new things or even in the extreme case found your own style. If you are a knolegeable instructor also your personal style will be good. It does not necessarely have a lineage in order to be effective.

 

This is my personal opinion please tell me if I miss the point

[GrrrArg]

Wheres the question? The old masters continuosly evolved their karate, so surely it is traditional to do so?

 

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Wheres the question? The old masters continuosly evolved their karate, so surely it is traditional to do so?

 

 

You know...I've been involved in thsi same art for 30 years as of this coming January, and I don't feel even remotely qualified to be making any changes to something that I feel works quite well. Who am I to think that I know more than the old masters did?

 

Self defense is still self defense. A knife attack is a knife attack..whether 200 years ago, or today. A club is a club then, as it is now. What changed?

 

OK, so 200 years ago the masters didn't have to contend with Uzi's and AK47's inb their faces...at a distance, what can you do anyway? Nothing people...absolutly nothing except dive and roll and try to get out of the way.

[GrrrArg]

If you feel it works quite well then dont change it. There approach was what made them the masters. If they saw someone doing something better than the way they did it, then they used it. Eventually they were able to see they flaws and correct them themselves.

 

Things stagnate and die without change. But at the same time dont fix it if it aint broke etc:

 

I agree, your still gonna get attacked in much the same way today as you would in the past. But if it suddenly became glaringly obvious that you were doing something that actually wouldn't work, you'd change it.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

If you feel it works quite well then dont change it. There approach was what made them the masters. If they saw someone doing something better than the way they did it, then they used it. Eventually they were able to see they flaws and correct them themselves.

 

Things stagnate and die without change. But at the same time dont fix it if it aint broke etc:

 

I agree, your still gonna get attacked in much the same way today as you would in the past. But if it suddenly became glaringly obvious that you were doing something that actually wouldn't work, you'd change it.

 

That';s always been my philosophy my entire life about everything. If it ain't broke..leave it alone! I find the system I practice is logical, efficient, effective and just to darn good for me to get into making any changes. That's my opinion of it anyway, and I'm sure there are those that would say otherwise. So far I've been able to prove detracters wrong when they try to show me something better within their own systems. I'm not saying my system is perfect...but I haven't seen one yet that I like better.

[GrrrArg]

Hmm I didnt mean the whole system. Say if an Aikido person taught you a more effective way of locking a wrist, would you use that?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Hmm I didnt mean the whole system. Say if an Aikido person taught you a more effective way of locking a wrist, would you use that?

 

Good question. Actually, maybe 15 years ago or so, I had the opportunity to work with an Aikido black belt locally and we did some comparisons. We do what is called tuitte..or joint manipulations...essentially the same thing as Aikido in manipulating joints. The execution may be a bit different in some cases, but both are similar and effective. Most of the differences are in what you do after you manipulate the joint. Aikido takes them down and holds them, whereas we we do that also, or might kick out the knees, attack the groin or specific nerves with kicks, etc. We're talking Fords and Chevy's here mostly. Same thing, just different approaches.

[AngelaG]

Does/has anyone's instructor cross trained and used what they have learnt in their other style?

[Shorin Ryuu]

WHO PUT THE TRADITIONAL IN TRADITIONAL KARATE?

 

Okay, here's another opportunity for me to rant excessively, I suppose.

 

I always have mixed feelings when I hear the word traditional in conjunction with karate.

 

There is the respect I have for many traditional training methods, such as kata. There is also just the sense of, well, tradition, that evokes certain notions in the mind. I don't mean the tradition of hanging up stockings over the fireplace during the Christmas season, or hiding eggs so that your children have to earn their breakfast for a change by finding them on Easter morning, but you all know what I do mean. Traditional values like respect, humility and self-control.

 

Further still, I still use the word "traditional" to describe what I do, mainly because of the perspective and the general idea that it purveys to who my audience is. It certainly denotes to the reader that I do not do more "reality-based martial arts" or "forge myself in the furnace of the ring." Depending on your viewpoint, it may also suggest I don't "waste my time with sport karate." Whatever you view it as, the word "traditional" is convenient in discussion.

 

And then, there's the part of me that wants to jump up and down with a bullhorn and a banner, announcing that as it relates to karate, very little of what most people see as "traditional" is, in fact, traditional at all.

 

Now, now, put away the ropes and the torches (and you with the pitchfork, let's just say it was meant to stick into hay, not bored writers on internet forums).

 

There have been countless posts, both by me and others, pointing out how relatively new the dan/kyu and belt system is in traditional martial arts. About how in the oft-quoted "old days", people trained in what basically amounted in a loin cloth and belts were made to hold your gi closed (no, not hold your pants up, do you ever think of the physics of that? If people used obi to hold their pants up, there'd be a lot more hanging in the breeze than grandma's freshly washed laundry). There have also been a few posts, quite a bit of them mine, that address the extremely recent nature of the solidification of styles (the ryu system) on Okinawa.

 

I haven't seen too many posts on what strikes at the issue here. I've hinted, cajoled and directly stated it from time to time. I have also seen others post something along those lines as well, but not very often.

 

Unfortunately, what I do see is a rather large misconception on what "traditional karate" actually is and what it is we do. I think the largest part of this is confusing what is "traditional karate" and what is "traditional behavior patterns of Confucian-influenced societies."

 

The bowing and the respect paid to the sensei and superiors, the sense of group unity, the notion of the transmission of certain practices, these are obviously not exclusive to karate. Nor are the values of being a "team player", humility and self-control. You can find as much in Japan on the Hanshin Tigers baseball team or the Thursday Evening Ladies' Ikebana (flower arranging) Club. These are people that have (although with much less emphasis nowadays) a ceremony dedicated to drinking tea, for heavens sake. My perhaps flippant treatment of this is simply to help put things in perspective.

 

The Japanese response to Okinawan karate's introduction to the mainstream (first half of the 20th century) was quite condescending. They viewed it as incomplete. Whatever it's combative capabilities, there was no established curriculum, no concerted effort towards the indoctrination of spiritual and self well-being. They probably didn't know which they thought was worse, the lack of an established ryu system or the archaic teaching methods that didn't necessarily lend itself to being taught to large masses. This ushered in a large host of changes into karate. The wearing of gi. The dan/kyu system. The creation of established ryu that taught one person's method of doing things. The perception that training in more than one ryu as being disloyal, undedicated and unscrupulous. Kata became more rigid, more formalized, more symmetrical in orientation, whether that meant in pattern or body structure. Many people did go about merely copying the many moves perfectly, without knowing the deeper meaning behind them. Rigid adherence to a "count" totally disrupted the timing of the kata, and was more of a tool for teaching the kata than for learning it.

 

But that wasn't always the case. If anything, in traditional Okinawan karate, at least, and I'm sure the same goes for true traditional Chinese boxing, combative training was always tailored towards the individual. Sure, they were given certain drills and things to do, but everyone had their own way of doing them. You look at all the karate masters on Okinawa and what did they do? They didn't obstinately learn just one thing. They traveled all over Okinawa, learning different ways of doing things. Maybe one person was famous for his bo techniques. They went to his place and trained. Another was perhaps famous for kicking, and one for punching. Odds are, they're probably friends and maybe traded students with each other. They traveled to "mainland" Japan, China, and Taiwan. They took things they liked and discarded things they didn't like.

 

So as far as counting in Japanese and using Japanese terms (that's only because they spoke Japanese...of course, the Okinawans spoke Okinawan), bowing, wearing gi, the belt system, the ryu "style" system, all of that isn't exactly what truly makes up traditional karate. So, what is?

 

Kata. In my mind, that is one of the few things truly traditional in "traditional karate" in terms of what has been part of the training for over 105 years.

 

I could perhaps continue my discursive dissent with the widely held views of many people. However, I will limit it to a more pertinent topic, which to put it elegantly, really gets my goat.

 

I have said this before, and so have others, to their credit. But this time, I'm going to say it. Perhaps I'll have to edit it out later, but here goes:

 

Most of the disparaging of traditional karate is in my mind, the product of Bruce Lee's denigration of what he viewed as uncritical copying of technique to create mindless automotons that had nary a free thought of their own, let alone the ability to win a fight.

 

But I'll let you in on a deep secret. Bruce Lee and I, we really think alike. Me, the defender of "traditional karate" and one who, to say the least, did not hold it in high regard, have the same view.

 

Unfortunately, what I think Bruce Lee missed is the generalizations he made only apply if you are guilty of what he said never to do: Be obssessed with techniques. But, I'll stop picking on Bruce Lee. He was a good fighter. In my opinion, not great and certainly not the greatest, but he did a lot for the martial arts community in terms of popularity. He definitely had a work ethic that could probably somehow fuel the electricity of a small rural town during winter. And like I said, he and I think alike. We like the idea that the only limit you have is what you place on yourself. Not quite what Nietzche was saying, but more like what Immanuel Kant was saying. Don't sell humanity short, because we have unlimited potential. Now, before I take this on a more philosophical bent, let me get to the whole reason I bothered to bring Bruce Lee up at all.

 

We also both agree you need to have an open mind, and you shouldn't be hung up on techniques and learn principles instead. If anything, that's the principle of JKD.

 

My beef with him is that concept isn't anything new. And this is where I actually tie everything together.

 

Let me start by rebutting this statement:

 

"Lots of people who are great at kata cannot translate it in real

 

situations."

 

I answer this statement in two ways. The first is that what many people's

 

idea of being "great at kata" is usually wrong. There are many people who are excellent athletes who can kick high, fast, and move real quick. Often times, however, they learn kata that only teaches them to be in great physical shape, rather than being a great fighter. This is a drawback on many people blindly accepting kata that has poor mechanics and thinking it is useful.

 

The other way is that many people who are "great" at kata are just "great

 

mirrors." You can teach a monkey to mimic a pattern. A person can mimic the looks of even a practical kata, but unless they actually concentrate on learning the "why" instead of the "what", they will never become good fighters. Most people I've trained with or discussed with divide their training into "traditional kata" and "the useful stuff." With that mindset (and if they're taught to divide it, the kata probably is crap anyway), they'd never be able to gain anything from the kata, even if it was worth knowing. I've met many "kata" collectors who can show me the Shotokan version of one form followed by the Wado Ryu version. I ask them why they do a certain movement, and I rarely get any response better than "I'm punching" or "I'm blocking" or "It's just tradition." For these people, the critics are right. Kata was a waste of their time...but it should not have been.

 

The focal point is that kata is a training method, a tool. Just like many things in life, "you get out of it what you put in". Unfortunately, if you don't put effort in it properly, you won't get much out of it either.

 

And this brings me to the point that I have been trying to promote ever since you all became unlucky and I found this forum a year and a half ago.

 

Kata and drills, the staple of traditional karate, are meant to teach you some techniques, but more importantly, they are supposed to teach you PRINCIPLES. My caps-lock key is actually not stuck, but I harp on that for a reason. There is too much of an emphasis on techniques by many people, some traditionalists (none very experienced traditional martial artists that I've encountered) and many non-traditionalists. As the non-traditionalists argue, a technique may not work in a "real fight" (ironic in and of itself as it often is meant to mean the sports arena, whether that is Taekwondo, the wrestling mat, or UFC). However, you train to gain the understanding of the "why" behind it. Any real fight is often dirty, sloppy and fast. Techniques often don't work out quite the way they do in kata or partner drills. Unless you know the principles firm enough, through a combination of kata (pure theory combined with complete execution) and drills (technique compromised by real world limitations), you're right. The defender does not have to "play by the rules". If you've trained correctly and learned principles, you will make him regret he ever came to the table because you can adapt.

 

So what does this have to do with the inability of traditional karate practitioners to adapt? Oh, nothing much, except that the notion of nonadapting, unchanging traditional karate practitioners is not the heart of what traditional karate is.

 

Granted, there are some things that are established as "the way" to do things, but even that changes from year to year, and is only for the purposes of preservation for future transmission (kata being the most obvious example). Nowadays we put karate masters on the spot by asking "what is the official way to do the kata?" We have them make videos or ask how they "count" a certain kata. But in the old days, they weren't necessarily always as precise in their hand placement or demanding that everyone look exactly the same. Because everyone's body is different, the kata will look different. Maybe the emphasis isn't on placing one hand with the fingers of one hand touching the wrist, maybe the emphasis was placed on crossing your hands in whatever manner you can without having to rotate the body, which means the hands will be in a slightly different positition for every body type.

 

But still, you learn the "official" way of doing kata. But as you progress, you develop your own way of doing it, the way that suits you the best. You might argue that the act of learning kata in and of itself is a sort of limitation, but that is an underestimation of the act of learning kata itself (not to mention the myriad of other training methods that karateka do in addition to kata).

 

In short, the only thing really traditional with karate is the kata. Most everything else, from teaching en masse to wearing a belt and gi, to rigid adherence to form, is new.

 

The purpose of the kata was self-defence and/or training for self-defence, as was the purpose of traditional karate. Kata isn't necessarily always set in stone (maybe jello, perhaps), but getting rid of kata would get rid of that which defines traditional karate.

 

And this is why I believe changing with the times isn't exactly necessary. And the reason for that, is because the training method of kata itself, despite the commonly held view to the contrary, is not a rigid, locked, unadapting method of training. It is only that way if you, as the individual who is training, is rigid, locked, and unadapting. So maybe when people that go on about the metaphysical and spiritual glories of the kata are right. In this sense, the kata truly is the representation of yourself.