ShoriKid

Sounds like you had some fun, which other than that whole "learning" thing, is the point. We've considered and discussed such a gathering, but there are some troubles with it. Not the least of which is the pure scheduling.

Chill a bit, relax and talk to the instructor. We introduce people to things quickly in our dojo, but they will be very limited on what they're actually getting to do with the drills. Predetermined, 50% speed/resistance on the attack, no or single follow up techniques. And it builds. At my original Matsubayashi Ryu dojo, you didn't spar for the first 3 months period. Regardless of prior experience/training. And then you started off with the instructor and senior students. Certain limb conditioning drills and joint work was held back as well. You have to build up to such things. A side note, there's also an American Top Team gym listed for Long Island and they have a strong rep for good training. Like others, I live in the sticks. Closest BJJ, where Pitbulljudoka goes weekly, is right at an hour of hard driving if traffic is good. Most other good training at least that far away. You get benefit even from occasional visit to different dojo/gym is good for your martial growth once you have gotten good roots put down.

Nothing stops you from it really. You may or may not be able to teach under the SRKDI banner, but if you don't care about that, that's another thing.

Not quite the same, but dig up Lunch Money, card game with the laughs and it's the school yard brawl to get your lunch money.

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I keep meaning to post, but never have the time to put together a long, all encompassing post to cover all the points brought up. But, I will put forth my heretical view on kata. I work kata and believe the contain valid combat application with solid principles and concepts being communicated in the movements. However, where I differ from a lot of kata proponents is where I believe they fall in the training scheme. Kata are, primarily, for out of class solo drilling. As a package of techniques and drills that follow a certain concept throughout. Class time is time to work application, drill with mitts, shields and do partner work. Working kata in class is to get the basics down enough to start refining and to see where the partnered work is coming from. Get the occasional corrects on the kata. That's it. I don't feel like the guys who passed kata down to us spent all their time with groups of people working kata. Heck, most every old photo of karate training I can think of that involves more than one person training is partnered drills, not two guys doing kata. Now, you might spend a whole class learning the kata and getting the first few break downs to drills. You might not train kata again for weeks. The instructor was counting on you to do that on your own. Then he has you run it, makes a correction or two. The whole time in between you're working what that kata does in drills. Time to clean up for the day, so, more later maybe. Too stinking sunburned to train right now, so I may as well post. Heck, shoes are an issue right now!

A simple one, humility. Spoken of. Praised highly, sought after and lauded as the highest of virtues. Over used and with too much emphasis it's as false and as hollow as a cheap bathroom door.

I don't think we're disagreeing all that much. More talking past each other than anything else. Settled in two minutes of talking in person, takes 3 weeks in forums. My point has always been that there are somethings that work, they are just very hard to train safely at full power. I'm not talking finger jabs to the eyes. I can make brushing contact in a drill and get a real enough response to those. But, to really get the feel for a hard forearm or knife hand to the side of the neck or base of the skull. Dangerous stuff more because of the target than the weapon. Light to moderate contact in a partner drill can give good incite, but you have to be careful with that sort of thing. I'm not a "too deadly to train" guy. I like contact, I like feeling the results and making sure others can feel them when I'm apply technique. I just recognize that you can't go 100% all the time and think you're going to train all the time. When I hear people saying they do full contact striking all the time I shake my head and try to get out of the conversation. My opinion is anyone telling me that is either lying or doesn't know how to throw a good punch/kick. If they did someone would be getting knocked out or injured frequently. Even pros don't go full out every day. I suppose that what irks me, and it's not anything you've said tallgeese, is when grappling proponents shoot down anything that isn't full contact competition. With the "it's all theory and conjecture unless you're fighting MMA" gets my goat. Realistic limitations on what you can safely train are something that has to be accepted. That people are in denial of what those limitations are for other systems gets old. There is a larger discussion in that I guess too. So tallgeese I'm not saying no touch compliant drills are the way to go, trust me. I am just a guy willing to say up front I can safely train some things in my art, other things are much harder to do, but they are still good techniques and should be worked as realistically as possible.

Wasn't saying he was wrong. I've agreed, and said for years that grappling arts are at an advantage in being safr to train live. I just wanted to put in that if we're being honest it has to be acknowledged that striking arts aren't very safe at or near 100%. It isn't just that things only work in theory and the strikers don't want to try things out, that "too dangerous" isn't just made up, it's a fact that people have to work around. An inconvenient truth of training if you will.

Not to debunk what you're saying tallgeese, but isn't that an advantage grappling arts have over striking arts in general? Especially ones that use more than closed fists and shins(those excluded because of fairly good protective gear)? Hard, concussive blows to the head & body aren't something that you can train regularly, at nearly 100%, and expect to do so often. Strikers always have to pull their shots, not use some weapons, (palms, forearms/elbows, knees etc) in order to be safe. If not, we have to hunt new training partners way too often. It's why rolling hard is so much fun for strikers, you can be more aggressive without fear or injury.

And bushido_man for the win!! Something I've never understood. I can be cool with no pads on the striking tools, and on the body/limbs. But, no mouth guard or groin protection? The first one I've paid a ton of money to get fixed over the years from hits and bad dental genetics. The second I can't order a replacement for over the internet. So, I wear the appropriate protection when I step onto the mats. Grappling, striking, it's all a contact sport.

This is your best bet right here, especially when dealing with folks outside your style/system. I would show up in your dojo expecting to get blasted off my feet by small children while training there Evergrey. I know that if I show up at most shotokan dojos I can't hit the inside of the thigh with a toe kick, or put a knee into the body at the end of a combination. As for blood in your urine, I got asked about taking any hard blows to the back during a physical for high school when I wrestled. I asked why, the doc said there was blood in my urine, I told him I wrestled and he checked me off as good to go. When you're in a contact sport, it happens. Hate to say it, but that Ni Dan needs to learn to suck it up and realize that some styles encourage a lot more contact and that when you go into someone's home, you play by their rules. You don't get to cry foul because they don't do things your way.

No. I was asked not to take one until my instructor thought I was overly prepared. I was told not to take one my kyu testings because I wasn't ready. So, I didn't. Failing a test though, never one I was told to be ready for. Yes, my best friend and training partner, a Nidan in another style, failed his nikyu test that I took part in. He was well trained, and very skilled, but had a really, really bad night during the testing. I haven't had anyone test for black under me yet. As for kyu tests, we only do 2 that are formal tests and the student knows they are taking part in. Green and Brown belt candidates know they are testing. All other kyu ranks are awarded when the student meets the requirements, not before.

Lets see, sticking to the high light's reel only! I hit myself in the face with chucks one night hard enough to require a couple of butterfly bandages. Broke a bo working on a kata, had to stop to put bandaids on chin and the end of my nose. Scored a clean throw on myself while working on the heavy bag. Almost got a self KO with a rolling sacrifice throw Thursday night. Apparently diving into someone's knee as they lurch foreword is a bad idea.

Montana, When has being not being "qualified" ever stopped anyone from giving advice?

Shoshin Nagamine trained with Kyan for a time while he was stationed at the Kadena Police Station*1. His account for Kyan mentions the man's instructors, Sokon Matsumura, Anko Itosu and Pechin Oyadomari. That Kyan was well educated, studying for 4 years in Tokyo learning the Chinese classics and had already begun some martial training with his father. By the same account Kyan was often challenged to fights when he was younger and by age 30 had a good fighting reputation*2. By the time Nagamine trains with Kyan, the man was older and training children. And police officers, the reference being "..and gave instruction at the Kadena Police Station and other places." I don't assume it was merely teaching in the station, but the officers as Nagamine had been assigned to Kadena as a police officer himself. So, not a primary source in the strictest sense of being autobiographical. But, for a historian's perspective the time from 1931-35 where Nagamine trains with Kyan and is familiar with him personally, is a primary. Accounts for Kyans training would have come from the man himself. So, primary/secondary there, gets a bit gray. Kyan's fighting reputation, either from Kyan himself, associates or other karate-ka locally. Again, primary/secondary depending on how it you want to rate things. Not refuting the author without having read the work, but it seems that Nagamine has a different view of Kyan than Dr. Clayton. *1 Shoshin Nagamine: The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do pg 41 *2 As above, pg 40

One of the best students I saw start was a 55+ year old retired Army DI and JROTC instructor. A bad knee, bone spurs on both heels and a tendency to lead with his head when he started and he was still great. One of the best instructors in the room when he reached higher kyu levels. Don't try to get in shape, wait for something to happen. Just go to the dojo/gym and start training.

I've told the guys I train with that it's all fair as long as I'm winning the fight.

I'm not advocating that people not learn as many kata as they want. What I am asking is do we need to keep collecting. And, if we are to be proponents of kata practice with an eye toward functional karate, don't we need to understand what kata are meant to accomplish? Nagamine Shoshin thought you could spend a year on the most basic kata, three to ten years on any of those of "black belt" level. With that in mind, doesn't it make some sense to practice fewer forms, not more? For myself I'd rather be a pond of great depth, than an ocean a thousand miles wide and one inch deep. I want those I'm teaching to have a chance at depth too. I don't claim to know the answers, have the key to wisdom or anything like that. But, if I'm going to believe in what I'm teaching, and I think you have to believe in what you're teaching, I need to be trying to show and share some of the depth I'm finding. If not, I feel like I'm teaching superficial punching and kicking. That's what drives me to strip away to a core so I can more easily get to the heart of karate. Or, I could just be rambling on and waxing a bit poetic about punching people in the mouth.

Wait, wait...an International studies guy who fenced and didn't get to go stab French nobility while on diplomatic assignment wrote a frustratingly not geek cool Star Wars book? That could never, ever happen. That's as likely as a historian who took up martial arts and loves he guns being unable to develop the perfect gun kata. Just couldn't happen. It's books like the one your talking about LP, that have such great geek potential. Sadly they often just don't deliver. And only we geeks care enough to be flustered by them. I've got a buddy who very likely could publish at least a novel length rundown of Hyperborean culture and politics. But, I'm sure it would be rough on the reader looking for thrones being trod under sandaled feet.

Man hugs, man hugs only. There isn't a person I train with in my dojo that I haven't drug up off of the mats after hard rounds of sparring or grappling and embraced. There isn't one I haven't helped stand up straight at the end of a promotion and given a good slap on the back in congratulations. And they've pulled me up to my feet and done the same. Good training breeds honestly. Not out of a mortal code you preach about, but because the training floor leaves no where to hide. When you're that honest with people, they are family. There is no shame in giving a family member a hug.

Finding split sizes is hard, finding good gi pants is tough. Try finding a heavy gi top as a separate. I've been striking out repeatedly. Anyone know of a good quality gi top, 12-16 oz cotton, that can be bought as a separate? I've fallen in love with the shorter sleeves of a tourney cut, but I'll take full traditional length if that's what can be found.

This is a question inspired in part by the thread below about how many kata are in your system/you know. I say in part because it is also inspired by several long conversations with other instructors with whom I've trained and a couple more senior students. I absolutely see the value in kata. Too many old practitioners, with strong fighting reputations, believed in the practice of kata(Motobu Choki, I'm looking at you sir). I know the type of good movement they impart and that they can continue to be mined for long periods of time. The concepts contained within kata are worth studying. Here's the but, and it's a big one. When is enough enough? For several years I've thought that if I were going to really study kata, a handful is all I will have time for, even over years of study. Where do you draw the line at? What do you keep, what do you drop? How many is too many, how many is too few? As I've said, I've had this talk locally. This is the first time, that I can recall, that I've brought it up to a wider audience. So, to pitch what I call the "radical traditionalist" pose that I've spoken of to a handful of others. Drop the Pinan/Hiean series all together. Keep Naihanchi Ich, perhaps Ni and San, but only perhaps. Then Bassai/Passai, Empi/Wanshu, Kanku/kusanku, Rohai, Chinto, Gojushiho. That's it. Seven to nine kata total to study. Not 26 or 18 or anything else. Tic them off on your fingers and never take off your shoes to finish counting. But, with a shortened list, you have much more time to devote to depth of study. Good principles of movement and concepts of fighting can be communicated and studied instead of worrying over learning the next thing on this list. Time is spent working those kata, breaking them down into two man drills, learning application and what those applications tell us about how they are meant to be used (the concepts within the kata). So, kf community, have I lost my mind? A long time ago someone decided that kata was a good vehicle to communicate fighting methodologies with. And, as I said above, I whole heartedly agree with that. But, when did having a garage full of vehicles that you didn't get to learn how to drive become the point and not the ability to make those vehicles preform? In stripping away some of the kata, what do we stand to lose if we have so many that we can't really study them with depth and with earnest effort? And, if it is right to strip away, what is too far? What is not far enough? Is there a happy medium that gives optimal results?

Center of our matted work out area is a 2x2m square. We've worked in that area with the rest of the class gathered around to keep everyone in and used a very wide range of techniques. We've sparred with a spare belt strapping you to each other at about arm's length. You really have to keep pressure on and work on that sensitivity or it's just rock'm sock'm robots. That's really good. Of course, I'd cheat and use the belt to my advantage. I would never think of such a thing..-shifty look-..ever.

I just...wow, that was really bad. I'm not in law enforcement, but I flinched watching the initial cuffing attempt before the second person jumped in. A lot was wrong that I saw on a common sense and basic tactics perspective. I'm sure that you're getting something to look at, train and discuss just on that part Tallgeese. When the second person dives into the fray you get a real abject lesson on why you need at least basic ground training if you're going to potentially be a fight/defense situation. A little bump, shrimp and the officer on his back could have gotten out of that position. I'm right with everyone so far on this. I'm a stand up guy, primarily, and I love ground training. Heck, the first "art" that I trained was wrestling in high school. I train in what I call a "traditional" way with karate, but we incorporate basic ground skills into our syllabus. It's required as part of gradings, and we spend a fair amount of time with it. I've explained to our guys that we're a stand up school, not a grappling school. But, that if you want to keep the fight on your feet and be serious about learning to take care of yourself, you have to have enough skill on the ground to survive. I laughingly tell them I haven't spent almost 20 years learning to hit you better to have a guy hit me with a football tackle or sloppy double leg and take all that time and effort away from me.

Center of our matted work out area is a 2x2m square. We've worked in that area with the rest of the class gathered around to keep everyone in and used a very wide range of techniques. We've sparred with a spare belt strapping you to each other at about arm's length. You really have to keep pressure on and work on that sensitivity or it's just rock'm sock'm robots.