DisgruntledGirl

In the end... we actually do agree with each other.... but still we just never will agree with each other. I think its just the extent of how you can push different individuals is where we are just not meeting each other eye to eye. I think in the end we might even actually meet eye to eye but do not realise that we mean the exact same thing... but due to our choice of words and our actual intent behind the words vs our perceived intent... we think we dont. Me personally? I can only do 15 straight knuckle push-ups with "good" form... 20 with "ok" form and up to 25 with bad form and just absolutely crumble after that.... I am not strong and probably will not be for a little while to come and my endurance is also pretty low (though much better than when I started). I do practice my techniques at home, though admittedly not enough and there is sometimes only a tiny bit of improvment on my worst techniques from class to class but there are some techniques that I still do not do well at all. Just curious, how would you handle a student such as me (knowing also that I am diabetic and have some minor joint issues)?

It's weird 'cus I agree with you very much, but yet dissagree with you all at the same time Agreed! But "hard" being subject to the type of student. You can't dish out the same kind of "hard" to the 48 year old grandmother who is trying to get some excercise and also self-defence in an interesting way as you can a 15 year old high school athelete. Heck you cant even dish out the same stuff you would to a 25 year old "unfit" person as you can to a young athelete. Any good sensei will try to determine goals as early on as he can, and gear the lessons for that student if possible but still get in *everything* that is absolutely required for each level, some can just be pushed harder at each level (though I realise in large schools that is not possible). The sensei should push the student farther than they *think* they can go, sure... but not furthur than they actually *can* go... at least not early on. Being *able* to do mass quantities of something that someon else absolutely cannot do early on does not make you more "worthy" of doing the art... though may make you advance quicker due to the possibility of more focus being able to be put on the technique as opposed to your own fatigue. Its funny cus I have actually told my Sensei that I think he goes *way* easier on me than any of this other students... even his newer, more inexperienced ones. He is quite often asking me if I am "OK" due to my heavy panting or a few general "ouch"es coming from my direction. He claims that he doesnt think he really does, but I think with my multitued of rather minor health problems I think he cant help but be timid about pushing me (though trust me.. he *does* still push me, just not as hard as some)... though I *always* answer with a "yes, I am fine"... 'cept for one time where I just kinda didnt answer him at all 'cus I didnt want to actually admit to needing to stop... so I just continued as best I could, and hoped that he'd accept it... and he did... but asked me after class "what the heck happened to you today?!?!?" Exactly. while you need the strength training excersises for sure, dishing them out as a punishment for "bad technique" is rather pointless. Have the student spend more time on the technique *not* punishment for bad technique (unless they are truely just misbehaving/lazy) agreed again... dont even have any caveates for ya on this one I'd say that this one I mostely dissagree with... but still not completely. While I see what you are saying, it just seems as though you almost want to deny the unfit training due to them simply being unfit, because your average unfit person who is just starting out will just not be able to make it through the hundreds of punishments that will need to be dished out due to "bad technique" at first... most students will have bad technique at first and while the athelete might be able to make it through the "punishment"... the unfit, the person who probably needs the training the most will not and will quit... and sorry to tell ya... but most MA teachers that do it full time do like being able to pay rent/mortgage electricity and buy food ans such and if you can ONLY keep your strong athelets coming... you probably will have to close the school doors cus there arent enough pure atheletes that start at white belt... so then even the athelets wont get the training. Meh... while I actually agree to this... I'm gonna dissagree just out of spite because I hate pushups and have a hard time doing them Hmmmm I sure did get long winded didnt i?

Sorry to say but I'd think that that school would not last very long, would probably only be able to be a part-time thing for the teacher... though the students that stuck it out (if there were any) would probably be more skilled than those at your average school. While that level of discipline and skill might be expected once you get a few belts up there, that kind of ability cannot be expected from a "beginner"... especially an "older" beginner. Some are just not athletically inclined and need the time to build up to that kind of skill. Since I assume you to be fairly "fit"... lets paint a picture from another persons perspective... I know that I still (only bin doing it for about 6 months though) often "understand" the technique that I am supposed to be doing... but physically just have a difficult time pulling it off, especially after I am already tired and will often end up "fixing" it after the fact. I am much better than when i started though and expect to get better still, but being hit/forced to do pushups everytime I got something wrong in the first few weeks/months... I would immagine would have not necessarily "scared" me away, so much as just simply forced me out of it simply to due to lack of endurance... and cross is right, many people just will not put up with it and few students=little income=no school. While it is not good to "water down" things to the point of being ineffective, there has to be a realisation that some just cannot do things as well as others or as quickly and shouldnt necessarily be punished for that (other than just not being allowed to move up in rank)... at least not untill they get pretty high up there which is part of the reason for the belts in the first place, to guage how much should be expected from students... Those that started out so weak might end up being the best students in the long run if you give them that time to actually get to the point of being "good"... or maybe I read the initial post wrong to begin with... maybe you only meant the higher ups anyway?

Hey jaymac. I remember a certain someone telling me that I "deserved better" when I was asking for advice on a similar albeit more severe problem than what you are having. Has something happened since you tried to help me? The way you talked it seemed like your sensei was almost always there to teach? While some others are SO quick to tell people to look for another school I honestly do not think that is always the best or even a good option... at least it shouldnt have to be your only/first option if you want proper training. I see that you say that you think you probably couldnt talk to your sensei about the problem... probably not the way I did anyway since your instructor seems to be a bit more of an intimidating fella than mine is (and sad to say it, but I think sometimes a woman can get away with some things that a man might not be able to... though I think any student can talk to my Sensei freely as long as it is done in an appropriate way.) But maybe you just need to approach it differently than I did and do it less direct and just keep hinting to your sensei in some way that you "miss" (wrong word but you get the point) him being the main teacher. You might not wanna have a "sit down" with him, cus it seems that might not help you, but telling him in a polite way repeatedly might start to sink in to his head that he needs to get back to teaching class.

Ah good. Someone similar to me, I was starting to feel bad I have three "hour long" (though usually end up being a little more than an hour and 15 minutes) classes a week and most days I'll just do little 5-15 minutes spurts of practicing and on the weekend will do about 30-45 minutes straight of practicing then do a few little intermittent spurts here and there. I just tend to not be bothered to warm up properly at home or something cus my knees seem to bother me much more when I practice at home (maybe its just that extra push I get at class or something since someone else is "watching" me, so I cant just "give up" as easily) so I usually just do enough to get a particular technique at least slightly better than the class before. I love it and everything... but I doubt I'm as serious as most of these other guys about it. Then again, I am also just a beginner so there is less material for me to cover. Maybe when I get a little further along I'll almost "need" to work at it more just to keep up and be able to advance at a "reasonable" pace? Wonder how many of these that train more than an hour a day (other than class days and possibly even other than weekends) are either older than 20 or are not a teacher of it? While I'm sure some are just that passionate about it, I'd say most that train that often are probably fairly young or an instructor... but what do I know? Though now that I think about it... I know some gym rats at my office that "work out" at least 3 hours a day so I guess its no different... but they know I think they're crazy

Hi, I had fairly recently found myself in a similar but still slightly different situation as you... and what I would suggest as others mentioned is to actually sit down and talk to your Sensei. Made the world of difference for me. I do not know if our "chat" resulted in things being "fixed" or if his life just happened to get in order immediately following our chat but point is... things are much better now. Try to have this talk in such a way that few people are around if any, and when you do, dont be afraid to stoke his ego in that you like learning from *him* so that if you stress that enough (though dont be *too* much of a suck up also state that you are very unhappy) you might not have to mention the other assistant instructors who you feel are not that good. When I did it he asked his typical question after class which is "Any Questions?" and I just asked then and there if I could have 5 minutes of his time after class to talk about something, and seeing as we are the last class of the day people move on out quickly and so me and him hashed it out. Of course if your Sensei is almost "never" there that might be a lil harder to do.

Must admit that its a little peculiar that you have forgotten that many of your forms (though I know nothing about tkd) because in our classes I have noticed that you will not only be asked to perform the katas you should know for "that" belt... but also often, or at least periodically you could be called to perform *any* of the katas that it took to get you to that belt so while you may be expected to need a lil refresher from time to time, on the whole we are expected to know all of the katas we have ever learned, and we need to know 23-24 katas to get our black belt (once again we are not necessarily expected to get an "old" kata perfect the first time being asked to do it in a while in class but still remember it to some extent) I find it weird that your sensei apparently does not ask you to perform old katas from time to time. Though I must admit 5 MA at the same time must be confusing. Try YouTube.com for any of your other katas that the others have not posted (if you at least know the name of them that is)... but be warned they might not be doing it in the way your school does or might just not know what they are doing but you should be able to tell which is which if you have ever done them before.

Thanks, thats what I thought. I believe our school hosted ... or at least my Sensei hosted (doubt there'd be enough room in the actual dojo building we train at) the Konishi Cup in 2005 though I wasnt attending the school at that time. Are you still training in Shindo Jinen Ryu or have you moved on since then?

What you say is indeed true. I cant judge how I would do in the long run by just a few classes. But the few classes I did have made me realize that I really didnt have enough interest in it to persue it further. Karate I was not very good at when I started *but* I had the interest, so it still feels *very* worthwhile (even though I still stumble quite frequently on the simplest of tasks ). Just dont know if I could feel the same about Tai Chi. Also it may have just been the "way" the Tai Chi instructor was teaching since she was just "filling in" she knew that this might not be something we'd continued with so she might have gone through some of the movements differently (more quickly) than with a class she "knew" would keep coming back. 2 of our new white belt Karate girls go to the Tia Chi class on a regular basis now though and they seem to like it well enough.

Wow! Thats a shame that his attitude was the way it was. My sensei feels bad if he has trouble remembering your name by the second class you go to. I've only seen him truely forget one new guys name once and after asking the guy to remind him of his name, he said "I will not forget again!" I do find it odd that they promoted you to 4th Kyu after only 6 months though... especially if they had issue with your stances (yup stances are expected to be pretty low at least in the beginning/intermediate katas but can raise slightly by the time you hit the really advanced ones). Woulda figured they would have just waited the normal lenth of time between promotions (for us it would have been a total of three years to get to 4th kyu... well for someone who had not done a similar system before anyway, possibly less for someone who had a lot of knowledge already) untill you had amended that to suit the style enough. I think I am probably well suited to a fairly hard style though. I dont posses the "grace" for soft styles I wouldnt think though I really dont know... I just know I'm an absolute mess at tai chi the few classes that the other sensei at our school taught in my senseis absence... though I'm sure thats a little bit different than what you're talking about.

That's cool. How long did you stay in the system? Why did you get out? Howard High is a 6th Dan and my Sensei is "only" a 5th Dan but I think he's quite good (though I have nothing to compare him to) except I think he's a little *too* involved in the whole Shindo Jinen Ryu thing in that (as I had complained about in another thread in a different part of the forum) for a while he would go away too frequently for my tastes to teach at/participate in this thing or the other. But, he seems to have managed to keep his butt here for a while and either my "complaining" to him worked or the other aspects of his life have managed to settle down... so I'm a lot more content now and he has started to make better arrangements with his black belts to fill in for him when he will be away again when he goes to take two of his black belt girls to the Konishi Cup World Championships (which he will apparently also be teaching at the Gassuku (sp?) beforehand).

Well... Thats because it is Shindo Jinen RyobuKai. As for Sanchin... I dunno its just what was in the lil booklet I was given... maybe it was added by my Sensei or something (though that seems unlikely)? ::edit:: I did some looking on youtube and you're right... Sanchin doesnt seem to fit in too well at all. Wonder how it got there on the list? Have you ever bin in that system? (have only seen one or two in this forum in that system)

Iiiiiiiii take it you know this from personal experience? I dont believe I have ever actually seen it done or heard it said yet... or its quite possible that since I'm still fairly new that I just dont remember that I have in the whole barage of Japanese words that I dont know yet.

I'm not sure but I think this must be a tournament for just the style I train in or something or maybe its not? Anyway, anyone in here ever bin to/competed in (or even heard of) it or the training period before it? How was your experience? Just curious.

Agree with this completely. Some styles are better suited to some people than other styles. Doesnt mean that "anyone" cant learn almost any art they truley try to learn and put in the effort for, but more effort might just be required of you than possibly from others. As much as I've heard that "grappling/ground work can be soooooo much better for self defence etc" I for one would not choose a grappling art over a striking art just because grappling doesnt suit me. I'd rather knock the person down and run away (not that that is always a choice) Now to the whole "dunce" thing. Ive felt that way quite often since first starting and wondered if this was really "for me". But I have found that I go through phases of being corrected for *every single move* and then once I get past some obsticle, I get corrected less and less and my confidence steps in for a bit.... then of course I will innevitable be shot down again by another obsticle of some sort like a tecnique that I just "cant get!" at first but slowly I find that it will fall into place... admittadly a lot slower than I'd like cus I'm not overly athletic either... but it comes. I'm sure if you look back to your first week (not sure how long you have been trying yet) you will notice mounds of little tiny improvements as you went along... even if only in realisation that what you are doing is wrong from time to time (cus that helps too!). Good luck though and keep at it.

Hmmm well in my school there seems to be about 27 (no, not a typo - twenty seven) before shodan (though we do do two of the taikiokus so if we were to just start from the heians It would be a little less). Wow... looking back at the other posts seems way more than most schools.... no wonder it takes us so long to get to shodan. Now I dont know if you have to do all of the required katas in each belt during a test to get to the next belt but you do have to at least learn them all to some degree of proficiency. ::edit:: It seems that I added them up wrong. I think I included the three needed to get to Nidan... so the actual number that you need to know before Shodan in my School is only 24 not 27. ::edit edit:: List of Katas learned at each level in my system: White: Taikyoku Shodan Yellow: Taikyoku Sandan Orange: Heian Shodan Green: Heian Nidan Blue: Heian Sandan, Heian Yondan Purple: Heian Godan, Tai Sabaki Shodan, Bo Kata - Suna-Kake no Kon Red: Tekki Shodan, Bassai Dai, Rohai Brown: Jion, Jiin, Tai Sabaki Nidan, Nijushiho Brown w/ 1 Stripe: Jitte, Kanku Dai, Tekki Nidan, Tai Sabaki Sandan Brown w/ 2 Stripes: Tekki Sandan, Seiryu, Bassai Sho, Bo Kata - Shushi no Kon Sho and Shodan: Empi, Kanku Sho, Sanchin Dunno what you learn after you are Nidan though.

Like everyone else has said it varies from school to school, organization to organization... but to give you a lil more info on how it can vary this is how my schools *minimums* go: White to Yellow: 4 months Yellow to Orange: 4 months Orange to Green: 4 months Green to Blue: 4 months Blue to Purple: 4 months Purple to Red: 8 months Red to Brown: 8 months Brown to Brown w/1 stripe: 1 year Brown w/1 stripe to Brown w/2 stripes: 1 year Brown w/2 stripes to Shodan: 2 years So as you can see... takes quite a bit of time in my schools system to get to shodan... a good 7 years (and i think I may have even missed something in that list)... and thats only *IF* you are "ready" to test at each minimum time period and thats also only *IF* you manage to pass every time you test... some schools it only takes 2 years (though that seems rather low to me) so if youre wondering before you try it out how long it'll take to get to black belt, varies on the school... varies on the system. Youd be better off asking the schools you are interested in *approximately* how long it might take... but at least we have given you some guidlines.

Ah I see. I had no idea. Good to know. I wonder if those rules will apply to the tournament that is coming up where I go? I think that even though you cannot necessarily *do* anything to calm your nerves (other than practicing a lot) I would think that the next time around no matter what... your nerves should be a little bit better anyway cus you have felt the feelings before and know how you might feel and just knowing that will probably make you feel it less (if that makes any sense). This is what I hope is true anyway, because I know my nerves were a complete mess at my first test a little while back (was sick to my stomach all day), so I *hope* that I would have calmed down some by the time the next test rolls around. Good luck next time around.

Awww, thats too bad. I have never competed myself so I was wondering, which would have been better in that scenario: To "accept" your mistake and continue on or to do as you did and start over? "Points"wise... which would have hurt you more or do you even know? Though I do know that some mistakes are almost impossible to recover from. In any event, good for you for having the courage to compete, which is a lot more than I can say for myself and even better for you for planning to try again! Oh and if I may ask, what rank are you?

Thanks guys, I have just today recieved an e-mail letting me know of the tournament that I think he musta bin pre-emptively trying to see if I had any interest in. I do think it would be "good" for me so to speak... 'cus there is really only one other yellowbelt at my school right now and she rarely comes... which I guess is why I'm so timid about the whole situation 'cus I really dont know how I would compare with someone else at my apparent level and this would give me the opportunity of facing people from other schools at my level. I still havent decided if I would enter though... I still highly doubt it, but maybe I'll just go watch instead... who knkows, maybe I'll change my mind by then.

Thanks for the input. Though I really dont know if it would have ever been the "trophy" that I would have been all that concerned with anyway. Even though in my initial post I did make it seem that it was about winning vs loseing I think that that is not really my mindset on things (though is a small part)... its more the worry that I will do much worse than even I know I could do because I have a tendency to "crumble" in front of an audiance and I'd be afraid that I'd just embarass myself. Cus like in class for instance, I dont see others higher up than me or lower down from me thinking anything like "uhhh and *she* is a yellowbelt?", because they know how hard I try even if I dont excel all the time.... though I could see something like that happening in a tounament scenario with a bunch of other people there who do not know me etc. Because I'm sure you have all probably been to a tournament (I have never been to one so maybe you really never would think this way while there) where you saw someone and thought "wow, did they just pay for their belt"?

you didnt really think you were very "good"... even for your belt level? The other night my Sensei tried to for the first time gauge as to whether or not I would have any interest in "competition"... not that he was saying anything like "your good, you *should* compete!" he seemed to be merely finding out if I had the interest or not (which I really dont). My initial thought was "eh? me?" Because the thought had really never entered my mind. I am the type of person that I am so competitive (though still not overly athletic) that I am not competitive... if that makes any sense? In other words... if I do not at least think very highly that I very well could win.... I'd rather not even try Dont get me wrong I do ok for the reasons that I started it for... for the exercise and just because I found it interesting.. and I find my mind catches on quickly to what I *should* be doing though my body is often a little slower to actually keep up with what my mind knows. I still do not exactly find myself to be a very "skilled" yellowbelt (if there is such a thing). In conclusion, I still dont think I could really see me ever competing.. but I was wondering if any of you that actually have competed before didnt really even think you were "good enough" to but did it anyway, just for the heck of it?

I think it should... or at least hope... and even if it doesnt "immediately", at least now I feel somewhat compensated if it takes him a couple more weeks to get his life in order. I was actually surprised/impressed with that. Think he's a great guy and all... but he's still a businessman and this is how he makes his living and I didnt see him being the one to actually suggest it without being somewhat "pressured" by me... but maybe thats why he did it, because I wasnt really pressuring him about anything, just mainly making him aware of my concerns and wanting to avoid my own disillusionment in the "sport" for reasons that had nothing to do with my own interest or lack thereof or or other obligations in my life. Still feel a tiny bit awkward (he didnt make me feel that way, I myself do)... is it weird that when he said that that I almost wanted to "barter" with him and tell him "noooo, dont do that! Just take off a half a month or something instead, a whole month is way too much!" Half a month would have acheived the same effect for me... that at least he's trying to make it up... but then... I'm cheap, so I of course didnt do that . Class on Wednesday (a couple days after the whole incident) was as if it never happened though, so that was good that it hasnt changed anything for either of us.

Update (Looooong read, read only if you are truely bored): Finally got to talk to my Sensei. I think it went pretty well on the whole. He was mildly defensive on some points, but I think that it would be odd if he wasnt at all, but he wasnt overly defensive which would have convinced me of a bigger problem. He was calm, I was calm. We both hashed it out a bit in that there were at least two times that he missed that there was a misunderstanding on the part of the people who were supposed to be teaching us in that they thought they only had to teach the kids and other things that may have been more "missunderstandings" on both mine and the other Sensei's part as to whether class should be held with just little ol' me at times when "my" Sensei was not there etc etc (in that I think I may have "felt" as though I was being turned away and she may have "felt" that I wouldnt find it worthwhile with noone else there... who really knows though). There were some things that we couldnt come to an outright agreement on in that I felt as though I was turned away a lot more than he thought I possibly could have been. But there was no way to prove either of our cases. I did tell him that I felt as though it was a lot of money to be spending on something I wasnt getting etc and he told me that he tries to always leave someone competant when he is not there (usually the judo Sensei) and I explained to him "but thats still not Karate!" and he said "well I myself "borrow" from other disciplines, but the Karate is of course what I stress and is of course all you are tested on, there is nothing wrong from learning something from something outside of Karate itself though!"... which is of course true and I think is a good thing... but meh, it just doesnt feel as "planned" as I guess it should. He also said that he really could/should be charging a lot more and I said that there are places that charge less than half of what he does... but then we both laughed and agreed that that doesnt really mean anything. I told him that I really didnt want to quit but I didnt know if I had much of an option and he oddly enough said that if I felt the need that I could maybe take a month and try somewhere else to see if they would suit me better... to which I explained that that was really not what I wanted or was looking for (and then I stroked his ego a bit by telling him that I really do like learning from him), and if I quit there I'd prolly just end up sitting on my rear and do nothing to which he laughed and said "well no, that would not be good!" In the end though he did state that it has really been just a busy busy time for him and that it was not *always* this way, he has apparently fairly recently had a baby (I actually did not know about this) and other things that often times cannot be avoided (though some can IMO)... which is really all I wanted to hear for now... that this was not a constant. Only way I'll know for sure it to wait it out a bit more. It was a good talk though. A lot of give and take and noone getting angry but just explaining both of our sides to each other and both of us "understanding" the other's side... but just thinking that our own side was more right We also talked about other things other than just what I was "complaining" about which made me feel better that it wasnt *just* a whine session (I'd rather not be the 'dreaded' student either). By the end of the conversation though... I had not asked for it, and feel almost guilty about it... but he did offer for one month to be added to my "contract" just to make me feel like I was at least getting more than the number of classes I had paid for if I truely felt that I may have been "cheated". Even though I mentioned in here about suggesting a reduction in my next payment when it got down to it I didnt think that something fair to "ask" for and I still dont feel good about actually getting it (especially a whole month) even though I didnt actually "ask" for it for some reason. Meh, maybe I'm just a big ol' softy at heart. In the end though I think you can see that he is probably not as bad as I may have made him out to seem and in some cases some might say that he actually *is* by what I have typed here (or maybe I have lowered yalls oppinion on myself instead? ) but I think though I know the intent of what was said by the both of us, sometimes in type it may not come across.

True true. We all have had teachers in school that we loved, some we liked well enough and some we outright hated... I guess as long as any teacher I found, personality wise, I didnt hate I spose that would be better than what I'm dealing with now. Yeah, I s'pose so. Thats actually not the biggest concern of mine. If I am mad enough to quit, he *will* know the reasons and I will not be upset about what he thinks of me, that was never really the problem. It was just the timing of the other class and the feeling that I might "miss" my old school. In any event, some people just need to be litterally told that what they are doing is not appropriate and I have not done that yet. It all boils down to how he reacts and how things go *after* I talk to him. Will keep you posted on what happens after I get a chance to talk to him. Thanks for the space to rant.