RF_Brown

Sensei John Ray is in Denton. His Website is http://www.dentondojo.com/. Sensei Ray is a highly regarded instructor in both Uechi-ryu and Iaido. Robert

I am in Plano. RFB

LOL! No Master here. Was an ITF student several years ago in Midland, TX but dropped out due to job. Have moved a few times and am now living in the Dallas area and have shopped around a little for a good Martial Arts school and would prefer getting back into the ITF. The closest thing I have found however is a local school that is a member of the USTF (the Hot Springs one, not the Colorado one), but my goodness gracious, boy oh boy are they expensive, way out of my budget. I am now busy trying to make my muscle memory forget the Sine Wave and make the transition to Tang Soo Do which is offered at a local Y for a really good bargain price and the instructor is top notch. He likes to claim that his class is "half the price and twice the value." I have to agree with what little I have been exposed to so far. I am now in my late 40s and doing all I can to get my body back into shape working out a lot on my own. Every time I get started good though I get handed a special work project that takes all my time and energy and I have to put it off, so it gets frustrating. However, for the last several years as sort of a hobby, I have done a tremendous amount of Internet research into the history of the Martial Arts, especially TKD, so please forgive me if I come across as sort of a know it all, but in reality am not even Dan ranked! Give me time though, I will get there. RFB

OK, but how many of you who say you teach or practice ITF forms (but are not affliated with the ITF) are really doing it like the ITF teaches and practices them? I know a lot of independent groups/schools teach the Chang Hon Pattern Set, but how many outside of the ITF actually practices their Tuls exactly the way the ITF does? I have visited many non-ITF affliated TKD schools that did indeed teach the Chang Hon Set and claimed that they teach "ITF style" TKD, but did not utilize the Sine-Wave and had even added movements to the different Tuls, and called them "Hyungs" or "Katas" instead of using the ITF terminology for forms, "Tuls." I know that the USTF located in Hot Springs, Arkansas practices their forms as the ITF teaches them. This USTF is not to be confused with the USTF out of Colorado that is (or was) affliated with the ITF. This Hot Springs USTF was also one time affliated with the Global Taekwon-Do Federation whom I understand also practices the Chang Hon Set with the Sine-Wave and also uses ITF terminologies. Maybe there are other groups as well that do, but these are all that I can think of. Names for forms: Hyungs - used by Tang Soo Do and Independent TKD groups Poomse - used by the WTF Tuls - used by the ITF Different ways to write TKD: Tae Kwon Do - generic, used by mainly Independent TKD groups Taekwondo - used by the WTF and the ATA Taekwon-Do - used by the ITF and the GTF RFB

R. McLain, Thanks for the info, I posted my last response before I saw yours. RFB

Well no. As mentioned it is actually what ultimately became the WTF and is still the official designation for the governing bodyof Taekwondo in Korea, while the WTF is the global body intrusted for promoting and teaching Taekwondo world wide. It was the WTF that ws organized by the KTA to replace the ITF after Gen. Choi and the ITF left Korea and the KTA. The WTF was largely responsible for getting Taekwondo recognized as an Olympic sport. Gen. Choi at one time as the president of the KTA, then known as the Korea Tae Soo Do Association first proposed the name of TKD and that is how he is sometimes referred to in some circles as the "Father of TKD." RFB

From http://www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html Besides the above link, for a comprehesive history of TKD see also Dan Burdick's article which was published in the volume 6, issue 1, of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (1997) and can be read on the Internet at: http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html and continued at: http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist2.html

After trainining in an ITF school for about a year and a half, I tried to make the switch to a WTF school once because the ITF school only had classes on Tues. and Thurs. and my job schedule sometimes conflicted with that so I found another TKD school that had classes 5 nights a week, but it was WTF. I just could not make the transition. Once I learned to execute all of my techniques with the Sine Wave, I found it too hard to not do it and the WTF instructor did not want me doing the Sine Wave and in fact had never even seen it before so it kind of weirded him out. Not only that but the way the blocks and kicks were loaded were just too different and I found that my body and brain were just too wired into the ITF way of executing techniques to try and change. RFB

When shopping for a good TKD school, look for a good instructor who has lots of experience, not a particular organization or style. A good organization that supports the instructor is a good thing, but not necessarily the most important. I have seen WTF tournaments, and that definately was not point sparring! BTW, just so that you know, I am a bit more biased to the ITF style of TKD than the WTF style, but felt in all fairness, this needed to be said. RFB

Lee would not compete in his day, as he simply was much too small. Someone like Mike Stone or even Chuck Norris would have been way too big for him to compete with. He however did do a demo at one of Ed Parker's tournaments, but that is as close to a tournament as he got. RFB

I tried a few times in responses to questions like this. The last one was back in Sept. See the thread titled, "Differences between TKD and TSD" at: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=14583&highlight= Scroll to the bottom of page one to see my entry. Thanks, RFB

Notice too the different ways of spelling it, and of course this too can vary from dojang to dojang but generally it is as follows, WTF and ATA: "Taekwondo" ITF: "Taekwon-Do" Independent and also to the art in general as sort of a generic term: "Tae Kwon Do" And the terms for forms also vary, WTF: "Poomse" ITF: "Tuls" Tang Soo Do and Independent: "Hyungs" RFB

Yep, and do not forget that pigs will fly, the sun is blue, and the communist Russians invented the telephone. RFB

Taekkyon was a street/folk game played by homeless street gangs that was locally popular in Seoul. Highly unlikely Gen. Choi would have learned this growing up in what is now in North Korea. As far as the myth of the "Hwa Rang Dan" goes, please do not even get me started! TKD is a late 20th century Korean version of Japanese Karate. However those Koreans have been great at inventing propaganda to market it. See my post on this thread.

If it is in Richard Kim's lineage, then expect it to be very traditional. Richard Kim BTW is considered as one of the all time great Karatekas. RFB

I took a few lessons a couple of years ago at Shaolin Hung Gar Kung Fu Academy. Very classical, but my tall lanky body (and aging ) could not take the ultra low stances and the body movmements required from those stances. The style features what can be described as "long fist" techniques.

My first instructor was an old Korean TKD Master. He taught me how to tie it so that it does not cross in the back. I have since either trained in or have visited several other schools over the last decade or so, and almost always I see everyone with it crossed over in the back. Doesn't matter to me. Once school however, a Wado-Ryu school even had a belt tying ceremony that all the students had to go through when entering the training floor!! The way they did it resulted in the belt not being crossed over in the back, but it was still a different method than what I do. In fact I never did figure out exactly how they were doing it. Please just let my tie my belt as I was originally taught, and I promise not to care how anyone else does it. RFB

Historically here is a very brief run down on the development of TSD and TKD. For the record, Tang Soo Do means the same thing in Korean as what Karate-Do originally meant in Japanese, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand," Tang referring of course to the Tang dynasty in China. Most all the early Kwans or schools in Korea at around the time of WWII called their art this name. When the Japanese masters due to nationalistic interest before WWII changed the way "Kara" was written to mean "empty" some of the Kwans in Korea began using the name Kong Soo Do to reflect this change. During the Japanese occupation of Korea before WWII, Korean martial arts were forbidden to the Korean populace, but not Japanese arts. At this time Japanese Karate was still basically Shuri-Te from Okinawa, as it had yet evolved into what is now known as Shotokan Karate, and this was what was being taught in the original kwans (or schools) of martial arts in post WWII Korea. When the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association (originally the Korean Tae Soo Do Association) was formed in Korea, merging all the kwans together into one organization, Grandmaster Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan refused participation, and did not adopt the new name of Tae Kwon Do (The Way of Kicking and Punching), the name the KTA adopted at the suggestion of General Choi Hong Hi of the Oh Do Kwan, continuing instead to call his art Tang Soo Do, and therefore also did not adopt the new pattern set developed by Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi, the Chang Hon Pattern Set, but rather continued to teach Koreanized versions of Shuri-Te forms. For instance in Tang Soo Do, the Pyung Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan katas in Shuri-Te, etc... This has all been documented in many articles published in Black Belt Magazine, The Journal of Asian Martial Arts, and Tae Kwon Do Times. Many of the Moo Duk Kwan instructors however did go with the KTA so that there was a split in the Moo Duk Kwan resulting in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. What is even more confusing is that many masters from the Moo Duk Kwan in the last couple of decades have formed their own organizations using the name Tang Soo Do, such as the World Tang Soo Do Association, the International Tang Soo Do Federation, etc... As a result the Moo Duk Kwan under Grandmaster Hwang Kee adopted the name Soo Bahk Do to describe the art they practice, claiming that it is the name of an ancient Korean martial art that Hwang Kee supposedly learned at some point and mixed it with Northern style Kung Fu. However despite that claim, Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do is more or less a Korean adaptation of Shuri-Te Karate. Northern Kung Fu may well have influenced Hwang Kee however as that may have been the basis for some of the high kicks that found their way into the Korean martial arts. Northern Kung Fu features many jumps and high kicks. In addition Tang Soo Do as practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan is a little more fluid and less linear in its movements than many of its Tae Kwon Do cousins, and that may indicate some Kung Fu influence as well. It is interesting to note though that Hwang Kee was a student for a short while at the Chung Do Kwan before starting his own Moo Duk Kwan. Chuck Norris studied at the Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) in Korea when he was stationed there in the military, earning his first black belt there. Norris' instructor at the Moo Duk Kwan was Jae C. Shin, now President & Grandmaster of the World Tang Soo Do Association. Actually I really like Tang Soo Do, and if I was 20 years younger I might well choose it as the martial art of choice (having studied ITF Taekwon-Do many moons ago). Heck even considering it now at my old age (well I am 47) and out of shape condition. In the 1960s General Choi formed the International Taekwon-Do Federation to foster the spread of Taekwon-Do around the world. After a good will trip by Choi and a demonstration team to North Korea in 1966 resulted in hard feelings among many in South Korea, Choi resigned from the KTA and relocated the ITF first to Canada and then in the 1980s, to Austria. The KTA, under the control of the South Korean government, meanwhile formed the World Taekwondo Federation which promoted Taekwondo as the national sport of South Korea and eventually was able to get it recognized as a sanctioned Olympic event. Choi passed away in June of 2003 and the ITF has since split into three rival factions. ITF Taekwon-Do is unique in that its techniques are practiced with a distinctive up and down movement known as the sine wave. ITF practitioners also utilize a sharp short exhale of breath through the mouth while executing this sine wave movement. General Choi was a Shotokan Black Belt and the Chang Hon Tuls he helped to develop were clearly derived from Shotokan katas and reflect that hard linear Japanese style. Notice also that the WTF spells it, "Taekwondo", the ITF, "Taekwon-Do," while organizations independent of either usually spell it as "Tae Kwon Do". The ATA though, too prefers the spelling of "Taekwondo", as in the American Taekwondo Association. Another noticeable distinctive difference is the terms that are used for their pre-arranged patterns or forms ( in Japanese, "katas"). Tang Soo Do practitioners and many independent Tae Kwon Do schools and organizations refer to them as "hyungs," the ITF calls them "tuls" and the WTF has "poomses." For more detailed information see: http://www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist2.html http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/master.html http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm RFB

I do not claim to be an expert on either WTF or ITF Taekwondo/Taekwon-Do, but how could you go to an ITF class on Monday and Wed. nights and practice all of your techniques and forms using the Sine Wave motion, and then on Tuesday and Thurs. nights attend a WTF class and perform your techniques and forms not using the Sine Wave?!? Whew, my head is spinning just trying to fathom it!

Sorry, that is why I put a question mark by the word, four, in parenthesis as I could not remember whether there were three or four organizations competing for the title of being the true inheritor of the General's ITF and I do not have the TKD Times magazine in front of me for reference and I was in a hurry when I posted that response, so did not take the time to research it either on the Internet. Lo Siento, Roberto the Magnificent P.S. addendum to post: Looks like John G. took care of me on it, I posted this before I read his response. Thanks John.

Not to get too off topic, but what is even more confusing, there are now three (four?) different groups that have, since Gen. Choi's death, claim to be the one true ITF. I skimmed an article in last months TKD Times that gave a little background information on each of these groups with an interview of their President(s). Even though I am no longer associated with the ITF(s), and I really do not have a horse in that race, I do think the General's son probably has the best claim to being the true inheritor of his father's organization.

Before 1955, it was all Karate. The modern evolvement of TKD started in 1955 when all the various Kwans came together to form the KTA, formerally the Tae Soo Do Association. For an objective history of TKD that is neither pro WTF or pro ITF, but cuts through all the propaganda * put out by both organizations on the supposedly ancient Korean origins of TKD, click on this excellent article by Dakin Burdick and was published in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html Snippet from part 2, http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist2.html : This article gives a very good detailed history of the various Kwans (schools or gyms) that came together to form the KTA of which General Choi was the president of for one year during whose tenure, the name TKD was chosen, and I do believe we are all in agreement that he is the one who is given credit for submitting the name. Along with Nam Tae Hi, he developed the Chang Hon Pattern Set (sometimes referred to as the Chon Ji Pattern Set after its first Tul) was developed. Up until that time, all the Kwans were practicing the forms (katas) from Japanese Karate (as those in Tang Soo Do still do). As late as 1965, Choi was still teaching Japanese forms along with the Chang Hon Set. In the 1960s most Korean instructors were still calling their art, Korean Karate. Jhoon Rhee who had the original TKD school in the United States, located in Central Texas was visited by General Choi in the mid 60's. During his visit, Choi urged Rhee to begin using the new name of TKD to promote the art. See also, http://www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html and this translated version of "A Modern History of Taekwondo", written by KANG Won Sik and LEE Kyong Myong, in the Korean language, http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/master.html Also, http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm

Well said!!

From http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3869&highlight=

From: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3780&highlight=