RF_Brown

Don't forget to mention that "blowing out a match" sound the ITF guys make while doing the Sine Wave. Actually I think the most graceful, I almost hate to use the word but, prettiest martial arts moves I have ever seen was GOOD ITF guys performing their Tuls with Sine Wave (small). Robert

Go here for a good history of the style. http://www.bournemouthwadoryu.co.uk/articles/wado_history.html

Uechi-Ryu

A couple of URLs that might be of help to you. For a history of Tang Soo Do hyungs read: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/9536/pyong_ahn.html The best history of TaeKwonDo on the Internet that I have come across can be found at: http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html

I really Dragon Times, as it is marketed mainly towards those who have an interest in Japanese/Okinawan Karate. I would post their website, but they have a discussion forum also (though it does not seem to be very active) and I do not think it would be appropriate to advertise it here.

The Moo Duk Kwan was one of the original schools of Karate in Korea. Later when the Korean masters unified their schools into what eventually became TaeKwon-Do, GrandMaster Hwang Kee kept his school separate and used the name Tang Soo Do, which in Korean meant "The Way of the Chinese Hand" and is exactly what Karate-Do meant in Japanese. The Japanese later changed the meaning of Kara to mean"Empty" because of extreme nationalistic pressure. To reflect this change some Korean schools started using the name Kong Soo Do but most eventually adopted the name TaeKwon-Do. Many Moo Duk Kwan masters though split to become part of the new Korea TaeKwon-Do Association and so there was Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan TaeKwon-Do. Because so many Tang Soo Do masters have now started their own Tang Soo Do organizations such as the World Tang Soo Do Association and the International Tang Soo Do Federation, that Hwang Kee and his son started using the name of an old extinct Korean military martail art, Soo Bak Do. So now we have Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan TaeKwon-Do, and Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bak Do. While no doubt Tang Soo Do has evolved somewhat from it's Shotokan roots, leave no doubt that it was, and is Korean Karate and up until the late 1960's almost all Tang Soo Do instructors in this country even advertised their art as Korean Karate. For an accurate history of Tang Soo Do and TaeKwon-Do see: http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html

I am sorry and I sure do not mean to offend, but I guess I am an old fashion person and I just do not believe that anyone should be training in Kobudo before they are at least Brown Belt level. That use to be the tradition everywhere and IMHO should still be!

"Isn't one of the major styles." Huh? Nothing could be further from the truth.

Interesting article: http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/hancock2.htm

Actually Tang Soo Do means the same thing in Korean as what Karate-Do originally meant in Japanese, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand," Tang referring of course to the Tang dynasty in China. Most all the early Kwans or schools in Korea at around the time of WWII called their art this name. When the Japanese masters due to nationalistic interest before WWII changed the way "Kara" was written to mean "empty" some of the Kwans in Korea began using the name Kong Soo Do to reflect this change. During the Japanese occupation of Korea before WWII, Korean martial arts were forbidden to the Korean populace, but not Japanese arts. At this time Japanese Karate was still basically Shuri-Te from Okinawa, as it had yet evolved into what is now known as Shotokan. When the KTA was formed in Korea, merging all the kwans together into one organization, Grandmaster Hwang Kee refused participation, and did not adopt the name Tae Kwon Do for his school, the Moo Duk Kwan, and continued to use the name Tang Soo Do, and therefore also did not adopt the new pattern set developed by Gen. Choi, the Chang Hon Pattern Set, but rather Koreanized the Shuri-Te forms. For instance in Tang Soo Do, the Pyung Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan in Shuri-Te, etc... Many magazine articles in Black Belt and Tae Kwon Do Times have been written on this subject and it cannot be disputed. Many of the Moo Duk Kwan instructors did go with the KTA however so that we had both Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. What is even more confusing is that many of the Tang Soo Do masters in the last couple of decades have broken with Grandmaster Hwang Kee, forming their own organizations using the name Tang Soo Do, such as the World Tang Soo Do Federation, the International Tang Soo Do Federation, etc... As a result the Moo Duk Kwan has now adopted the name Soo Bahk Do to describe the art they practice, claiming that it is the name of an ancient Korean martial art that Hwang Kee supposedly learned at some point and mixed it with Northern style Kung Fu. However despite that claim, Tang Soo Do is nothing more than Koreanized Shuri-Te. Northern Kung Fu may well have influenced Hwang Kee however as that may have been the basis for some of the high kicks that found their way into the Korean martial arts. Northern Kung Fu features many jumps and high kicks. In additon Tang Soo Do as practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan is a little more fluid than many of its Tae Kwon Do cousins, and that may indicate some Kung Fu influence as well. It is interesting to note though that Hwang Kee was a student for a short while at the Chung Do Kwan before starting his own Moo Duk Kwan. Chuck Norris studied at the Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) in Korea when he was in the service, earning his first black belt there. Actually I kind of like Tang Soo Do, and if I was 20 years younger and a good Tang Soo Do school was in my area, I might well choose it as the martial art of choice, but I do not for one minute buy the propaganda that it is a native Korean martial art. Just look at the forms, they are quite clearly Okinawan Shuri-Te forms.

On the Internet, there is a Chito Ryu school in Florida with an instructor bu that name, although listed without the middle initial of A. Just remember seeing it, but I did not write down the URL.

Actually Jhoon Rhee promoted what he taught as "Korean Karate". In the mid 60's, General Choi visited him in Texas and encouraged him to start using the name Tae Kwon Do. Rhee eventually started his own organizations. Today the Tae Kwon Do of that organization would little resemble what the ITF today teaches. In the early days of TKD, it was called Tang Soo Do, in fact many independent organizations that are not part of the ITF or the WTF today still do. It essentially means the "Way of the Chinese Hand." Tang meaning the Tang dynasty in China. It is just the Korean version of the same name as what Karate-Do meant in Japanese. In Japan before WWII, because of nationalistic pressure, the way Kara was written in Japanese was changed to mean "Empty Hand." In Korea, to reflect this change, the word Kong Soo Do was sometimes used. In the 1960s when all the various Kwans, or schools, in Korea merged (what eventually became the Korea Taekwondo Association), the name Tae Soo Do was adopted, and then later when Gen. Choi became the President of the KTA, it was eventually changed to Tae Kwon Do. By this time many of the early Korean instructors in this country had been using the term, "Korean Karate." Choi visited this country in order to promote the use of the name Tae Kwon Do. Choi even created an organization to promote the Korean art, the International Taekwon-Do Federation. After Choi left South Korea, the KTA created the WTF as the international wing of that organization. Today Jhoon Rhee is affliated with neither the ITF or the WTF but is an independent branch of Tae Kwon Do. Both the WTF and the ITF have evolved what they teach in vastly different directions. Independent organizations and instructors today usually write the name of their art as Tae Kwon Do, while the WTF uses Taekwondo, and the ITF writes it as Taekwon-Do. Independents use the term, Hyungs for patterns, while the WTF uses the term Poomses, while the ITF calls them Tuls. Many independents teach the ITF Chang Hon Pattern Set but do not use the Sine Wave while practicing them, or teach the Theory of Power, of which the Sine Wave is a distinctive component of. The Moo Duk Kwan did not become part of the KTA and continued to call their art Tang Soo Do. Many Moo Duk Kwan instructors did though, so that in effect there became two Moo Duk Kwans, so that we have Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, and Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. Because many of the Korean masters left the Moo Duk Kwan(Tang Soo Do) and created their own Tang Soo Do organizations, the Moo Duk Kwan today uses the name, Soo Bak Do, to describe the art they practice. Just a side not. Tang Soo Do features the original Okinawan forms of Shuri-Te that the early Korean masters taught, before either the Chang Hon set was created by Choi, or the TaeGue(sp?) and Palgwa(sp?) sets that are currently practiced in most WTF affliated schools. Jhoon Rhee still promotes his style as an art, as does the ITF, but the KTA, and therefore many if not most all of its WTF affliates push Taekwondo as a sport. Most all Korean masters are associated in some form or fashion, even if just in name, with the WTF. The WTF is much much bigger and more influential than either Jhoon Rhee's organization or the ITF.

Uh, just a correction, Gen. Choi, created the ITF while still the President of the KTA in order to spread the art of Taekwon-Do around the world. After he decided to leave Korea (and taking the ITF with him), the KTA created the WTF as the international wing of their organization. The KTA, an arm of the South Korean government controls all Taekwondo in South Korea. The WTF is much much bigger and profoundly more influential than the ITF. Most all Korean masters are associated in some form or fashion, at least in name with the WTF. The KTA promotes Taekwondo as the official sport of South Korea. In South Korea, it is taught in almost all the schools but is thought of as a sport. Going to Korea to learn Taekwondo would be like a middle aged Korean coming to this country to learn to play football. The Koreans will accomodate you, but they think Americans who do so are very strange indeed. The Korean masters I have met in this country are usually very reluctant to let American business men learn how to spar the way sparring is taught to youngsters in Korea because they think it would be a strange thing to do, they do not want to be liable, and they do not think adult Americans have what it takes to excel in the sport. The ITF on the other hand has a very systematic form of teaching their art, and welcome people of all walks in life to participate in the art in order to better oneself and enjoy the benefits from the training. The WTF by the way usually writes the name of their SPORT as Taekwondo. The ITF writes the name of their ART as Taekwon-Do, while many independent instrcutors and organizations write it as Tae Kwon Do. Many of these independent organizations have adopted the older Chang Hon Pattern Set of the ITF but practice them much different from how the ITF practices them now. In addition, very few of them practice the Sine Wave or teach the Theory of Power that is distinctive of ITF Taekwon-Do. Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do have evolved in vastly different ways and do not even remotley resemble each other. They are two different animals. And something else I just thought of, the ITF calls their patterns, Tuls, while the The WTF calls theirs Poomses, and most independents call theirs Hyungs.

El Guerrero Loco, Here are a couple of URLs that have explanations. http://www.saskgtf.com/theory.html http://www.taekwondo.freeserve.co.uk/technical_explanations/explanation_of_sine_wave.htm

Well, I am not a Black Belt, so when I enroll in a school, I pretty much do as I am instructed and when in Rome, do as the Romans do, and when in Japanese Karate, do as they do in Japanese Karate. Those outside of the ITF tradition may and I emphazise the word MAY, find the Sine Wave as too choppy and too telegraphic. On the other hand though if you watch someone like Fabian Nunez, ITF 6th Dan out of Odessa TX and former Lightweight Kickboxing Champion do it, then you will see that on his level anyway, it is neither choppy or telegraphic, but just pure explosive. Not too many instructors in the WTF teach it though or have picked up on it. Seems to be an ITF thing. Some organizations that have sprung up from the ITF may also practice it, but I am far from being an expert on the subject.

Maybe we ought to start an "Old Geezers" forum. Just kidding, I do not really feel like an old geezer, well my left knee, due to too much tennis, but other than that I'm good to go.

Newbie on board here. I am a 45 year old geezer who is trying to get himself back into shape, even if it kills me. In my somewhat distant past, I made Green Belt in ITF Taekwon-Do, and then also a little Shorin-Ryu. Used to live out in West Texas where Martial Arts instruction was where ever you could find it. I now live in Plano TX where I have found a Wado-Ryu school that I am very impressed with. One thing about the USTF/ITF was the high standards they practiced and taught and this Wado-Ryu school is similar in that regard. Very traditional. Anyway I am glad I found this forum as it looks extremely interesting and helpful. Robert

I am ex- I.T.F. The one thing that you find the hardest in transferring to another style, or at least it was for me, is to shed the Sine-Wave movement on every technique. As hard as it was for me to learn to do it, it was even harder to learn not to do it! You might check out any school associated with the ITA in your area, I think they do the Sine Wave also, although I am not sure. When I first moved to the North Dallas area, I did not find any ITF schools, but did find an ITA school. I never got around to checking them out, as I found a Wado-Ryu school that I was really impressed with.