To me it was the whole training 'format' i guess. Like i said, i want to train to stay fit and be able to defend myself. In karate training we did the basics, kata, sparring, bagwork on a very rare occasion, some partner work. Most of the class time was spent working on technique, which i dont have a problem with because good technique is important, but i think there is a point where you need to move on and practice the technique in application. There just wasnt enough of this in the class. I learned around 10-15 kata, none of which i have been shown the applications for, i learned the japanese names for all the techniques. etc etc... none of which helps me in achieving either of my goals. All of the above are nice things to do, and suit some people, because not everyone has the same goals or needs from their training. But for me personally i dont want to spend my time doing that kind of thing, when i could be training in other ways to achieve my goals. I guess it comes down to me wanting to train more like an athlete and less like an "artist". I know what you mean. Unfortunately, this is the state of just about all (maybe all period) of traditional martial arts. The result is less effective and inferior techniques to that of boxing, kickboxing, etc. In my experience, I haven't once seen any karate or traditional anything school with a real emphasis on sparring and conditioning.