Sinbad

Who wants a dirt, sweat and blood encrusted belt anyway? Seems like it's the same people who say 'belts don't matter, it's the martial artist inside that counts'. So why do you want (grossly unhygenic) evidence of your hard work and skill plastered on your belt? Let your actions speak for themselves, but I guess a smelly belt certainly speaks volumes to be honest, if you are zipping through the coloured belts then I guess it is ok to skimp on the washing. But I have an old favourite white belt that I dig out everytime I move dojos that definitely needs all the washing it can get.

Kickchick - you seem quite adamant that you shouldn't wash your belt. Why not? It's only an item of clothing. Surely you don't want a dirty smelly belt on your lovely clean & ironed gi? What would happen to your gi if you never washed it? The same happens (a little more slowly) to your belt and it's not very hygenic.

To -: if your 'white belt' is really brown/black through use then I bet it stinks to high heaven. Not to mention the fungus and other bugs you have probably got growing in it. The old story about a white belt turning 'black' through endless use is just a myth. All the old masters I have read about were very strict about keeping their gis clean and I'm sure they wouldn't have put up with a fungating belt. Do yourself and your training partners a favour - wash that belt!

Martial_Artist, I think there are two separate issues that we are discussing here. First of all, I agree with you that a martial art has to have martial application or martial intent. Tai Chi practised purely for its health benefits is not a martial art. However, you seem to contradict yourself on the issue of effectiveness. First you say: 'Whether or not an art is effective has no bearing on whether or not it is a martial art. However, whether or not that art teaches fighting with the intent of fighting determines whether or not that art is a martial art.' Then you say later on: 'Also, effectiveness is the be-all and end-all of martial arts. If you are a martial artist then you train to fight. If you're training to fight ineffectively it may cost you your life.' So which is it? My point is that the benefit of martial arts is more than JUST the ability to fight (although that is important too). Perhaps the ability to master oneself, to truly know your own potential and limits, even if you are not a very good fighter, is a major benefit of dedicated martial arts training in itself. Incidentally, there are lots of different 'fights'. Would you treat your drunken relative who gets aggressive at a party in the same way as a mugger with a crowbar? How about someone in the pub who swears at you and pushes you on the chest, does he deserve to be dispatched swiftly with a knife in the throat or perhaps simply restrained with a wrist lock until he shows himself to be more of a danger? I'm sure many competent martial artists could defend themselves against a casual one on one street encounter. However, the same person probably wouldn't last long if jumped by 20 gang members. Does his/her ineffectiveness in the second situation mean he/she is no longer a martial artist? The traditional BUDO arts have always been about more than just fighting. That is why they are called 'the way'.

That's fantastic. Very open minded of your instructor to see the weaknesses in a pure striking style and complement it with a grappling art. Personally, I think we live in a shrinking world where it is increasingly easy for martial artists of all types to communicate and discuss their respective art forms. Surely there is much to be said for learning from each other and not sticking exclusively to one pure style just because of tradition.

Hey MonkeyGirl, you say you do groundfighting as well as TKD. Is that part of your TKD syllabus or do you cross train in another art?

KickChick, you made some good points. However, you said quote: 'The advantage of the black belt in a "combat situation" is they are prone to be more familiar with many different fighting styles and theories so may quickly evaluate their opponent's possible actions.' The problem is that familiarity, and the ability to do anything under pressure only comes through practice. However, I just wonder how many of us actually simulate 'combat situations' in our dojos, such as surprise attack, fear, pain, swearing & shouting etc. I know I don't in my training and would like to do some of this type of training too.

MA, not sure I fully understand you. Do you mean that if you can't fight or don't train to fight, then you are not a martial artist? I agree the term martial arts should be applied to activities that have an underlying martial intent. However, effectiveness, while certainly one measure, is not the ONLY determinant of what is a martial art and what is not. Where exactly do you draw the line as to which art is geared towards fighting? You have dismissed Tae Bo and aerobic kickboxing. How about Tai Chi or Aikido? How about olympic TKD? Full contact, but still a sport. What about judo? Great self defence but no strikes and also an olympic sport. What about Thai boxing? Very effective striking but no groundwork! Also what kind of fighting are you referring to? In the schoolyard? UFC style? No holds barred street fighting? the kind of fighting that special forces would use when on a commando raid into enemy territory? It is too easy and closeminded to say that martial arts are only about fighting. Because then you have to ask fighting who, when and how? Effectiveness is not the the be-all and end-all of martial arts.

Carlos Gracie was taught 'jiu jitsu' by Maeda who was a high ranking judo blackbelt from the kodokan. I've heard that the reason he called it ju jitsu was because Kano (the founder of Judo) did not want him teaching judo outside Japan. So Maeda taught what he knew and called it ju jitsu. Judo today has evolved into a very different martial art from what it was in Kano's time - mainly because it has concentrated on the sporting element. However, there is still a style of Judo called Kosen Judo that concentrates mainly on groundwork and is VERY similar to Brazilian ju jitsu.

That statistic is from the LAPD about officers apprehending suspects. Since it is easier to cuff a resisting suspect when he is pinned to the ground, it is not surprising the % is so high. What % of fights not involving LEOs go to the ground? Who knows. On the street it is clearly best to stay on your feet. Sure, you need to know some groundwork for if you end up there but it is even more important in my view to master strikes and throws particularly from the clinch so you avoid going to the ground in the first place.

Quote <> Great point, MA! If a Thai boxer kicks a karateka in the leg or a judo man applies a choke. Is this dirty fighting? Well only under the rules of sport karate. Similarly, head butting, eye gouging or biting. There are no rules on the street.

Headbutts are VERY practical and effective when you are in close. They don't hurt much if you use the front/top of your head (very strong bone here) and you strike the opponent's face. Don't butt the opponent's skull since that wll hurt! TR, bunkai in karate, eh!? I had never thought of that. Great idea, I will have to see where I can fit them in, in my own kata practice

EOTT, you are seriously deluding yourself if you think grappling is a waste of time. If you only know striking arts, you won't have a clue wht to do on the ground, which is where a lot of fights end up. I'm not saying grappling is the ultimate discipline, just that you should know some to be a competent fighter or at the very least enough to avoid being taken down. Re. Judo - judo is a sport AND a combat martial art. Just depends on how you train it. Many of the throws would be absolutely devastating on concrete and can be worked from the clich which is where fights often end up. Moreover, judo also has the chokes and joint locks that BJJ has. The difference generally is that judo focuses more on throws while BJJ focusses much more on grappling on the ground. [ This Message was edited by: Sinbad on 2002-06-03 13:37 ]

This firearms issue is tricky because a lot of people esp in the USA believe VERY strongly in their right to carry firearms. So it is hard to have an open minded discussion about it. I'm not going to get drawn into this argument but just wanted to ask Withers how the fact that gun possession laws were tightened up a few years ago in England could possibly have affected national crime rates since well over 99% of thepopulation never had a gun anyway?! Let's not make spurious claims to support our arguments

Hi everyone karate has such a huge variety of strikes with fists, fingers, elbows, knees and feet. Does anyone know if headbutting is a traditional karate strike? If so, what is the japanese name for this?

sounds like good co-ordination of the whole body so you get a really effective punch. Never heard the term silkreeling before though. Interestingly, this co-ordination of the entire body in sequence is not unique to martial arts. Tennis players do exactly the same thing for a good serve and golfers do the same to hit a long drive. Guess there are only a limited number of ways the human body can generate maximum power whatever activity you are engaged in

Bon, on the whole I agree with you when you say <>. I just think it takes some people a while to discover the true martial artist inside themselves.

Hey, disagreement is great keeps me interested and stops my brain going senile Bon, I'm sure if I was to come to your dojo, Id spend half my time being taken down and the other half getting back up again, only to go straight back down again. My point bro, was that most thugs on the street don't have that kind of skill, although I grant you, I can't speak for Oz.

Aikidoka nice post and I agree with most of the things you stated. However, just to provoke discussion, one of the main criticisms of aikido that also applies to lots of other budo arts is that it isn't practised against a fully resisting opponent. So when you do come across one outside the dojo, you are in a situation that you have never been in before. I gather that at least one style of aikido does practice free sparring or randori - Tomiki aikido I think. Are you familiar with this style and if so, what are the 'rules of engagement' for this type of randori practice? I am interested since we incorporate some aiki-jutsu into our karate syllabus. However, the moves are pretty viscious and would probably injure a fully resisting partner if I tried it during sparring. Any thoughts on how to incorporate wrist grabs and arm locks into free sparring would be welcome.

<> Hey EGL, that's brilliant! I almost fell off my chair laughing Seriously though, streetfighters come in all shapes, sizes and skill levels. All the way from pathetic to seriously mean. The only thing they have in common with each other is that thay all have experience in attacking / fighting people on the street. Most black belts don't and that is what makes the difference. Not that i have a great deal of street experience, but read the people who do - like Geoff Thompson. He points out how different fighting on the street is to what most martial artists are used to. Things like the element of surprise, fear, shock and pain mean that it is really hard to bring all your dojo-honed skills to bear when attacked for real.

There seems to a lot of debate about whether the kicker would stop or disable the grappler before or during a takedown attempt. Depends a lot on the 2 people obviously, but for all you kickers out there who say it is easy to break ribs etc with a solid sidekick. When you are sparring in the dojo, how long or how many attempts does it take you to land a solid side kick? Unless you are much more skilled than your partner, it's not easy. If you can't land a solid kick, first time, every time against someone moving in then you are vulnerable. On the bright side, unlike NHB competitions, there are very few people walking the streets who are experts on take downs. In my experience, if somone rushes you, it is more likely to go to a clinch type situation before the 2 people hit the floor. So being able to handle the clinch (with a judo throw, elbows and knees or even a head butt) is extremely important for all strikers.

Hi everyone, Been postings for a few weeks now and just realised I hadn't introduced myself here. I'm 38, practice karate and have done some Traditional japanese ju jitsu in the past. Couldn't find JJJ in the place I am now at so I'm mixing up my karate with judo at present, and loving it! This is a great site, fantastic discussion and no (virtually no?) gratuitous abuse. Keep it up.

Hey Bon, <> It depends on what you think the belt represents and is closely related to whether you are practising a -do or a -jutsu art. If the main goal in your training is combat effectiveness (bu-jutsu) then sure, belts should ONLY be awarded if you are effective - as is the case with BJJ. However, if the goal of training is much wider (budo) then I think effort, dedication, correct attitude are just as important if not more so than simply combat effectiveness. This is particularly true for lower belts (anything below brown). However, to get a brown belt and especially a black belt, then yes, you should demonstrate BOTH effectiveness as well as correct attitude. Remember, in most budo arts (unllike BJJ) a first degree blackbelt means simply that you are now a serious student and competent at the basics. It doesn't mean you are an expert! Who really cares about the colour of one of the first few belts, whether it is yellow, orange or blue? The main benefit of these lower belts (at least in budo arts) should be that they show the 40, 50 or 60 year old beginners (anyone in fact!) that they don't have to kick, punch or throw as well as the athletic 18 year old to progress in the art as long as they show good dedication and effort. That way they will stay in the art long enough to appreciate that belts are really unimportant and it is the pushing yourself to be the best martial artist that you can be that is the real goal. Besides, if as you say <>. Then why do you care what belt other people wear? Why don't you just ignore the belt and judge them on their attitude and skill? [ This Message was edited by: Sinbad on 2002-05-29 19:30 ]

Hi Leo you should consider judo. Since you have hold of your opponent, feel and sensitivity are just as important as vision. We have a partially sighted guy in our judo class and he does pretty well. Judo is also very effective as self defence. All the grappling, takdowns, submissions and chokes you see in the UFC are part of the judo syllabus. [ This Message was edited by: Sinbad on 2002-05-29 19:53 ]

Sorry Tobias, there's only 14 pounds in a stone. 16 ounces to a pound however!