Hitman

Every style likes to think they are the best. Why would you continue to train in a style if you think another style is better?? So a bit of ego gets in there. However, my father (who is my Instructor also) would always say, "The Art is the Art." In other words, who cares if this person uses a different technique to defend against a punch! It is defending it that matters! One thing that I think gets forgotten a lot nowdays is that we are not training to fight each other in the Martial Arts. We are training to defend ourselves against some unknown attack from someone who wants to hurt us or take what is ours. Another Martial Artist will not be doing that- maybe this unknown thug knows some techniques, be he is NOT a true Martial Artist. As a Shotokan instructor, I should NEVER have to worry about defending myself against an equally qualified Judo instructor. Why? Because we would never have a real reason to fight. Even if one of us were really, truly mad at the other, one of us would still walk away before resorting to using what we know. A REAL fight between REAL Martial Artists looks a lot like this...these words written in a forum, peacefully debating our opinions. ANYWAY, what I am trying to get at is that your argument is completely moot. Try thinking about it in terms of a team- what do you think would happen if BOTH of you were assaulted? Could you BOTH defend yourselves, and what would each of you be doing differently? You can learn from them, and they from you. OK, I am sounding like philosophy book now, so I'll shaddup...

Well, it's like with any other weapon- scarey as heck until you REALLY know what you are doing with it. Also, you want someone VERY knowledgable teaching you and making sure you don't get hurt- just like learning to use a Martial Arts weapon. When I was younger, guns scared me- and not just because of the noise. I had heard all kinds of stories about how they would "kick" and hurt you. Well, I found out that they do kick, but not nearly as much as some stories I had heard. Well, there are some kinds that will hurt your shoulder with the kick, but they are generally older models. Anyway, after I started learning all about them, that fear turned into respect- ANY weapon is designed to HURT people, and you must treat that kind of item with respect. Just like a car- if you do not use it right, you may end up hurting yourself or someone else badly. Firing a gun can be really fun if you do it right though. It's awesome how much damage they can do at such a LONG distance.

Well, buddy, I like a katana (Japanese "samurai" sword). However, I have found that I can only use it well with both hands, so if I am doing something where I want a weapon in each hand, I will drop down to a smaller sized sword- like a Wakizashi (which is the smaller version of the katana). For some reason, I have never liked the "feel" of a straight bladed sword like a Ninja-To, most Chinese swords, and most European swords. And, since I am fairly small, I do not like the feel of the heavy "barbarian" style sword you might see in magazines. I just could never use one properly with my size and strength.

WOW...didn't know that. I also did not know that Ohio was suddenly a hot bed of ninja activity

Stephen K. Hayes has a large school just South of Dayton, Ohio where Ninjutsu is taught by a true master of the art. And, I thought we were talking about the traditional Ninjutsu here...not what a "new age Ninja" would be doing.

There is an instructor around here that successfully defended himself from a carjacking with the broken-off antenae from his car. Evidently "whipped" his butt pretty good...

Naw, tonfa are only good when you have a grinding wheel that you need a handle for...therefore, after harvesting the grain with kama, threshing it with the nunchaku, you will need to grind it with a millstone and THAT is when the tonfa become invaluable in your war against the grain. ALL GRAIN MUST DIE! Kill it, replant for next year and KILL IT AGAIN!!!

LMAO....so I suppose that while threshing said grain, a nunchaku would be THE weapon??

OHO...hold up now. If we were talking about HOME DEFENSE that would be a different story. I have heard that the best weapon for home defense would be a nice golf club painted black- they burglar wouldn't even see it coming, he'd just hear a slight whoosh. Spirit at Choice...self awareness is a highly overlooked skill, and I'm not sure if anyone has even touched on that in this thread. There have been several times in my life where I have just simply felt something was not quite right- didn't like the looks of the crowd up ahead, or that the dumpster sitting there was a perfect place to hide behind- and taken an alternate route or simply turned around and walked away. I don't know how many altercations I have avoided in this way, but awareness of my surroundings has always been something that I have prided myself on. One such case where it saved me big time was when a particularly violent guy was trying to ruin my night when i saw his buddy sneak around behind me with a pool cue. Said buddy tried to cave in my skull, but I knew he was there- sidestepped and allowed the strike to clean out the violent guy. While they were trying to stop the bleeding, I was again using that Nike Fu technique. Survived...defended myself against 2 would-be attackers without throwing a single technique. Didn't even have to buy the guy a drink to make up for the one I accidently spilled...

Even Tae Kwon Do has to give some credit to Capoeira for having some seriously flashy kicks. Savate would be great, but where would you find a school?? I can ALMOST throw a rock and hit a TKD school around here- a couple are even good schools and not McDojos. Savate?? NEVER seen a Savate school or a school that teaches Savate. OK, Capoeira either, come to think of it... ANYWAY, find a good school first and THEN worry about learning kicks. Almost any good school will teach you good kicking technique. A Tea Kwon Do school will probably teach to more spinning and aerial techniques, but a Shotokan school will teach you good technique even if those kicks aren't always head level. So will a good Goju Ryu school, Shito Ryu or almost any other style I can name. The school and the instructor is the important thing.

Bonus points for using "trebuchet" correctly in a casual conversation What I'd like to see, would be a scientific conparison between different kicks, and different STYLES kicking methods. Get some different stylists- same basic height, weight, reach, etc- and start blasting away on a pad with a sensor on it to measure impact. I'd buy that video....no wait, I'd download it though

The Arnis sticks would be my choice. If forced to, you could use ALMOST anything in the style of these fighting sticks...a fireplace poker, a tree limb, a broken broom handle, the handle of your toilet plunger, a table or chair leg, broken pool cue...

WOW...we need to start a thread about use of cersonship "If you have your hands, what good are your hands (and feet) against a guy with a knife, trash can lid, and five buddies behind him ready to help him out." - Armor of God...exactly why are you training in Martial Arts? I train for this exact situation. UseoForce- if the guy is drawing a weapon, I would not simply plop a couple good body shots on him or even a chin shot. I would be going for the "Ikken Hisatsu" thing- one strike kill. OK, actually, a one-shot deal where he could NOT do anything while I escaped. I would take out his throat, his eyes, a knee...something where he is WAY more concerned with his own health than mine. meanwhile, I am using my best "Nike Fu" techniques to get as far away as I can. Now, in your other example...if the guy is skilled and wants you DEAD- has his weapon drawn, is more than far enough away so that you have no hope of reaching him before he can fire, etc etc....even if you have a weapon of your own- even a pistol- you are pretty much dead meat. No weapon is gonna save you- other than maybe that tactical NUKE you have strapped to your chest ready to blow if your heart stops beating

I want to completely disagree with your #1 statement for the following reasons: 1) You are- I believe- assuming the guy is expert with the weapon or at least practiced. I'm not sure I would call your typical back-alley robber a practiced handgunner. 2) I believe you are assuming that he even has a half-way decent weapon and not some $50 "Saturday Night Special. " 3) Finally, I know from experience (I helped train local Police and Sheriff's Depts) that if I am within about 6 feet, even an experienced handgunner cannot "clear leather" against me. OK, his holster IS snapped shut, but your alley thug is gonna have it hidden and must retrieve it from his hiding place (without dropping it). So, in my opinion, if the criminal is 10 feet or more away, or has his weapon already drawn, you had better give him what he wants and hope he doesn't want more than you have, cause your chances are slim. Closer than that, or if he has problems getting his weapon out and firing- he can put his head between his legs and kiss his butt good-bye. And, frankly, I am MUCH more afraid of a knife attack anyway. If the guy has a gun, it's already in his mind that he has a lethal weapon. Most people do not view a knife as such even though it can be. OK, well...if the guy has a bead on me from 20' away with a gun, it's his world and that scares me to death, but a hidden knife in the hands of someone who is even half capible scares me almost as much.

The winner is the one who goes home alive...Not really my opinion. In my opinion, the winner of any fight is not determined until AFTER the court case. If you use a gun in self defense- heck in some states, even using your hands in self defense- you immediately draw the question of excessive use of force. Did you aim to kill or did you aim to injure? Is your skill with the weapon such that you could have accidently killed the assailent when you were simply trying to injure him and end the threat? These questions sound silly when you think of it in the mindset that you are trying not to be killed. However, after you survive, lawyers are going to be asking you these questions- probably in a court hearing, maybe in a civil case brought by the so-called "victim's" family. Even if you do survive the attack, are you now looking at a life sentence in prison?? AND, all of this is from the perspective that it is legal to have that firearm/weapon to begin with. If you were carrying the weapon illegally, you may as well have tried robbing someone yourself because the law is going to see YOU as being a criminal. Also, let's say that a guy with a gun is trying to rob you. If you pull your own weapon- gun, knife, whatever- and kill the guy, you MAY end up being seen as a criminal even if you were carrying legally. Often it depends on the MOOD of a jury. Read that again and tell me if you wanna depend on that. Even if you cripple the guy- let's say you "cap" the guy in the knee instead of kill him- you MAY end up with a criminal case of excessive force againt you or certainly a civil case. Ask any policeman, Sheriff, or Trooper who has had to go through such an investigation and they will tell you how trying this can be. One wrong word, one wrong split-second decision and you're now the criminal. Now, if you are facing that same gun toting "bad guy" with only your empty hands, you are IMMEDIATELY seen as being in an obvious situation of of desperation. Even if you KILL the guy- crush his throat, whatever- it was your empty hands against a gun, and a jury is more likely to see it as self defense than as an excessive use of force. In short, (I know, too late) a weapon will certainly even the odds against an armed assailent, and this is probably the downfall of carrying a weapon. If you are carrying, you are obviously skilled, practiced, and liscensed while the bad guy probably is not. All it takes is a slight miscalculation on your part or a slight "bleeding heart" feeling on a jury's part to transform you from defender to murderer.

Now, this is an interesting little tidbit that confused the heck out of me for quite some time. Why would you snap your technique BACK, if you are trying to drive the guy's innards across the pavement. It was explained to me that it depends on what you are trying to do. If this is your Coup de Grace or Ikken Hisatsu (one strike kill) technique, by all means deliver as much of the blow into and preferrably THROUGH your opponent as you can. However, with most techniques, your hand (fist) should be returned as quickly as possible to prevent the opponent from grabbing onto it and performing a lock, throw etc, on you. Just as your hips innitiate the forward movement of your punch, your hips should also begin the recovery of that punch. Kihonkai...any chance you know Malcolm Phipps-Sensei?? If so, tell him Cox Sensei from USA said Hello...

Quick question here...why are we talking about a whip? True that I don't particularly wanna get "cracked" with a whip, but I am not trying to bring up a welt with a kick nor tear through skin. I am trying to CRUSH whatever I am kicking, not "flick" it. Also, I don't believe there are near enough joints in the lower body to liken it to a whip anyway- I cannot flex the shin bone, nor the femur, etc. I thought the power in a whip was basicaly because the whip flexed continually while transferring kinetic energy into a continually smaller area (as the whip gets smaller near the business end). I may just be missing your point. I think the physics behind a swing with a baseball bat may be more appropriate in this case.

Fair enough...so lemme ask you this then...what exactly is the difference between how your are taught to throw a kick and how Karate teaches you to kick??

Killer Miller...I will be using that in my classes from now on. GREAT idea!! Here's one I like to do...when you practice techniques or kata, you often hear that you want to hear your Gi "pop" with each punch or kick. It's a decent indicator of generating power in your technique. Now, try doing this with your hands grabbing the back of your belt. Just reach behind you, slip your hands down through your belt and grab on. Start with very basic waza or kata and watch yourself in a mirror (if your school has one.) When you are "throwing" a punch without actually moving your arm, you will see very quickly how much motion you are generating with your hips. Still haven't figured out how to do this with kicks though...

I have to jump in on this one and start another mess. I believe the effectiveness we see in ANY tourny is a direct result of the rules of that particular tourny. Tae Kwon Do kicks are effective in tournies PARTLY because they do not allow hand strikes above the throat level (at least not in Olympic style events.) They can go "all-out" with their high kicks. In the UFC, that style of fighting is effective PARTLY because of how those matches are set up. If all 12 (or however many there are) guys were to be throw into the ring at once, we would not see nearly so much grappling because 3 guys would gang up on the one guy rolling around wrestling to get a submission hold. In Muay Thai, we see a competitor going more "all-out" and throwing a LOT of his body into the kick- sometimes even dropping his hands to add more "umphh." In Karate style competetions, we do not see as much of this PARTLY because it opens you up to other techniques. At least this is my opinion. Do you think it has any merit or am I way off base??

I think I understand your point Kajukenbopr. You are saying that not everyone can simply take a month's worth of classes in this style, a month's worth in that style and a 3rd month's worth of classes in this other style and make it fit together as if they had taken 3 month's classes. However, the original question on this thread was not the mixing of STYLES, but the mixing of techniques. That was my point when I was talking about different Shotokan schools teaching slightly differently. Yes, it is the same "core" system, but it can have a very different "flavor." Not all instructors are open minded enough to even consider much in the way of altering techniques either. Some seriously traditional schools will ALMOST say "this is the ONLY way" on many techniques. For example... I have been in an "open" tourny where a competitor threw a nearly perfect Kung Fu style "Eagle Arm" strike to the opponent's head. He was not awarded the point because the "Ridgehand" was not proper form. The official was a Karate stylist (so was the competitor, but that's another story) and probably had no clue that the strike was in very proper form for another style. In his mind, the strike was simply not right, and frankly, this does go on a LOT in some schools. My point is that certain schools and cetain instructors do NOT necessarily teach you practical stuff. Some teach traditional stuff to the exclusion of practicality. Some schools and instructors- even in the same style- teach the same techniques differently based on their own experiences and their own instruction. Well, much like this discussion- we have 2 different view points and neither one is necessarily correct and neither is necessarily wrong. However, I do like being able to explore your opinion and learn from it.

Useoforce...GENERALLY speaking, one day is not enough time to allow for recovery. This is if you are lifting weights or doing serious calisthenic activity like multiple push-up sets. 60 push-ups every other day should be fine, unless you start feeling soreness or joint pain. 60 push-ups twice a day, every day would be bad though. What I am talking about is doing 3 sets of flat bench presses, then another 3 sets of incline benches followed by 2 sets of dumbell flyes...you are gonna need to allow more time for recovery than just a single day following that sort of routine. It is also useful to "confuse" your muscles occaisionally. Doing the exact same routine for long peroids of time (several months) can make your muscles get "used to" that activity. Try doing 2 sets of 40 push-ups for a couple of weeks, then 2 sets of 50 for a couple more, then go back to that one set of 60 for awhile. Allow yourself a good long while between these sets...even one set in the morning and the second at bedtime. After having done that single set of 60 for awhile, that first set of 40 should be no problem- you may not even feel like it did much for ya. That second set should shock your system a bit though- you would be doing 1/3 more work than your body is used to doing in the same time span, even though each individual workout is spaced apart.

I also need to clarify that I have absolutely NO problem with someone who wants to carry a weapon for self defense- the right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to our Nation's rights. However, I have a serious problem with someone who wants to carry a small arsenal of concealed weapons seemingly just because they want to be a Ninja. This is what I meant by carrying weapons for ego- they make you feel big and bad. If you wanna carry pepper spray, a stun gun, Kubaton, pocket knife, even a LISCENSED firearm with a permit- more power to ya. If you want to go out looking like "Enter the Ninja" or "Pray for Death" then I start questioning your motives.

Here are your laws as I found them in South Carolina... TITLE 16, CODE OF LAWS OF SOUTH CAROLINA, 1976, RELATING TO WEAPONS, BY ADDING CHAPTER 24, SO AS TO BAN THE MANUFACTURE, POSSESSION AND SALE OF ASSAULT WEAPONS; TO PROVIDE FOR EXCEPTIONS; TO INSTITUTE AN ASSAULT WEAPONS REGISTRATION PROGRAM; AND TO PROVIDE APPROPRIATE DEFINITIONS.... Section 16-24-20. (A) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person in this state who commits any of the following acts must be punished by a term of imprisonment not exceeding one year: (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short barreled shotgun, any short barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag. This does NOT apply to.... (3) The possession of a nunchaku on the premises of a school which holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the arts of self defense. (4) The manufacture of a nunchaku for sale to, or the sale of a nunchaku to, a school which holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the arts of self defense. This all was simply copy/pasted from a web page....not just illegal to carry a nunchaku concealed, but illegal to POSESS a nunchaku...

Hang on a second...if a Black Belt is simply having learned all of the basics, or mastered the basics, and you shouldn't "cross-train" until you have mastered the basics, then you are saying that you shouldn't try anything but one one style until you reach Black Belt level?? I couldn't disagree more. An example...I train in Shotokan. Shotokan does not (very generally) teach any kicks above the level of the solar plexus. The style is noted for it's VERY low, solid stances and powerful techniques. Personally, I am quite limber through the legs, so I learned very early to use Tae Kwon Do-esque kicks in my sparring- using my natural ability to "accent" my Shotokan training. I would use the same Shotokan style technique on a roundhouse kick, just throw it at head height, sometimes with a spin...or a Shotokan style front kick at head height with a jump. It worked...FOR ME. And I did this after I had mastered (or at least learned well) how to throw a particular TECHNIQUE. Not ALL tchniques, just THAT technique. I didn't try to throw a spinning kick until I knew how to throw that kick, but I didn't wait to perfect a side kick before I tried throwing a front snap kick with a little hop planted in there. I also think you guys are a little too concentrated on a style's philosophy. A lot of a style's general philosophy of self defense or of fighting are opinions and not much more. Once upon a time, someone said this is how you throw a kick. Someone else disagreed, and so a new style was formed. Is either opinion wrong? Is either differing style of kicking correct for any and all situations? This is true even among different schools or even different instructors of the same style. In Shotokan, some schools teach to throw a roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot making contact (the area under the toes on the sole of the foot) and others teach to connect with the top of the foot on the toe knuckles. Which is "correct?" Do I REALLY have to "master" throwing this roundhouse kick with the ball of my foot before I try doing it with the knuckles?? Finally, I will shoot a little disclaimer in here. I do believe it is good and maybe even necessary to have a "thorough familiarity" with a style's philosophy and reasons for teaching a certain way before trying something new. There actually are reasons for a style to teach techniques in a certain way, and students should learn those reasons before branching out. However, individuals are individuals and what works for me may not work for you. Imagine what "Superfoot" Bill Wallace would have become if he hadn't said, "I wonder if I can do EVERYTHING with just one leg?" Like Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is useful." Geez I'm wordy tonight...