Drunken Monkey

....why do you have to be so condescending in your posts? i have one problem with your posts. all i have done is point out 'flaws' in the things you have said. as such i have done my best to explain and pehaps lead you to another line of research. what i have seen over and over again is basically you saying 'i am right, you are wrong'. your only concession to this was You may have a point in your last statement.

how about people who do not know the chinese language trying to argue with me over what something in cantonese means.....

...well, the thing is, these days, whenever i go into another school (of any style), i feel really akward and out of place because i didn't learn in a proper 'school'... even when i go to another wing chun place and they ask who i trained with i can't give any real detail or any impressive names. all i know is, one of the guys at home was a student of yip man (well, trained at the school when yip man was there....not sure who his real teacher was.) it's a good thing that the wing chun test is 'in the hands'.

...hmm, i bet some of you are wondering how i'm managing to be so 'restrained' these days.... anyway. here i go. I would say that in the old days many practitioners did not have the time to learn the 5 excellences as they were too busy trying to survive and stay alive most of the old masters came from rich families which afford them the luxuery of not having to work. this meant that they had lots of time on their hands to learn frivolous things such as martial arts, caligraghy, poetry, medicine and other virtues as suggest by confucius in his books. monks had a reputation as healers no they didn't. there were individuals within the temple that were able to heal/sort out minor problems but most of the time, it was one of the occasions when they could 'go down the mountain'. what you are actually saying is that generation after generation of kung fu masters were idiots to use herbal linaments this is kinda my point. they would have used some kind of linement but it wouldn't have been dit dar jow and it wouldn't have been that by itself. i've mentioned the name before. dit=fall dar=hit jow=alcohol. the purpose of this stuff is for aiding in the recovery of things resulting from falling or being hit. it isn't a preventative medicine. in fact, there are very, very few preventative medicines in chinese medicine. especially those studying at various temples (not necessarilly Shaolin either) martial arts study was not a common thing in temples. the majority of the smaller temples were more or less 'outposts' where people could come and 'give thanks' (and the rest were just money grabbing centres). If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu then you should know that many of the techniques that you are studying have been passed down from generation to generation as well i think this line says a lot......

....just wondering. on what do you base your ideas of 'chi'?

y'know, i don't mind bad schools teaching bad martial arts.... they make me look better!

......then there's alse the case that these things (jows) are a type of medicine that are 'prescribed' based on each individual and their relative state of 'health' (perceived ying/yang balance: i.e level of heat etc, etc) and are normally used in conjunction with more medicines (in the form of 'soups') and foods to eat or avoid. one particular mix of jow for me might not be suitable for use for you. that is why i'm always dubious when someone says that there is ONE jow that everyone can use for ONE specific purpose. generally, the ones that everyone can use are for general things....

Sacramento Wing Chun-Pak Mei is that eddie chongs class? i hear good things about that line (despite a little dispute about hierachy....).

i'm not asking for medical degrees.... but seeing as you're talking about 'certificates', the chinese government has an 'official' certificate for qualified chinese herbalist/doctors/bonesetters.... also, the points i made about the effects of ginseng and lingzhi should have made it clear that centuries old ideas of how 'good' something is, isn't always neccessarily true. I just stated the fact that many use such linaments for conditoning purposes and to prevent long term injury yes, that is what you said. i just pointed out that dit dar jow isn't something that is usually used as a preventative medicine because there are other (specific) jows for that purpose. am i wrong?

y'know, i don't think i had any of those feelings when i was first 'taught'. but then it might be cos of my exposure to them from an early age and the resulting familiarity with what they are.

how about banks that send you a letter to tell you that you don't have enough funds to pay for a £30 phone bill, then tell you that you have been charged £30 for the processing....

There are masters today that have used and still use dit dai jow to protect themselves again. this shows a misunderstadning of what dit dar jow is/was used for. it IS NOT a protective substance. it is a 'remedy' for bruises and sprains and other joint/bone pains. the only mention of it being used as a protective substance is in the legend of fong sai yuk who was reputedly to have been bathed/soaked in the stuff since he was a child (but this is just legend.....) what they have been using for the past 30 years is only alcohol with useless herbs i never said that. i was just pointing out that the ingredients of the stuff isn't anything special and is in fact quite ordinary (and i think the stuff we have at 'home' is slightly older than 30 years.... maybe you are WRONG and these masters are right he might be a master of kung fu but are they masters of chinese healing? they are not the same thing and they are not usually taught together, especially in the last 30 years. just cos he was told to use something (and so he knows has been using it for 30 years), does it make him an expert on what it is and its ingredients/properties? your mistake here is thinking that someone on this forum doesn't know more about dit dar jow than you or the guys who teach you. you are also tking this to be personal attack on you or the guys who teach you. should also point out that whilst dit dar jow isn't the best thing for this sort of thing, there are other mixes of 'medicine-alcohol' (yerk jow) that are specifically for this. that's what really bugs me. most western chinese martial arts places harp on about dit dar jow and that they get it from who-ever master from what-ever chinese town. the point is, it might be good dit dar jow but it is still the wrong stuff to be using for 'conditioning' uses. no-one ever seems to mention these other jows. do i nkow more kung fu than the guys who teach you? probably not. do i know more about the chinese culture, medicines and perspectives? i'll let the guys here tell you the answer to that one.

dammit... i try to make a poignant statement and you have to go and ruin it by reminding everyone that i am in fact a senile old chimp who knows nothing..... that's it, i'm going to go back to my tree and let the young chimpettes pick my ticks and fleas!

...dit dar jow=fall hit alcohol. it is the old chinese wonder substance that we, as children had rubbed painfully (which i'm sure had no effect on the bruise dissipation at all...) onto bruises and sprains and other non-broken skin injuries. the point of it's use after doing punch-bag exercises was that it, being alcohol based, would clean and sterilise the local areas and the herbs was supposed to help in the healing (although how much can you absorb through the skin on such a small area?). the herbs and what have you (i can give you my village's special recipe if you like.... does that count as real?) are just the ones that are/were widely taken to be good for cuts and bruises. the same stuff is often found in soup/medicine mixes. as a side note, wanna know what a popular soup that is good for bones and joints is? chicken feet, peanuts, mung beans, the funny earth stuff, some kinda bark + another mysterious long white thing (some kinds root). as i am always too keen to point out. the old chinese medicines aren't all they are cracked up to be. the ever popluar ginseng can cause heart and kidney failure if you take too much. and let's not even talk about lingzhi..... i really don't get it. why is it, when a lot of chinese people readily accept that a lot of chinese things, especially psuedo/mock ancient chinese stuff is bunk, you guys in the west are so willing to take them as they are fed to you... some things work but that doesn't mean all things work. i have a very personal story of an experience with a highly respected chinese herbalist/doctor/healer. let's just say that he couldn't have been more wrong in his diagnosis. like someone's tag says. what happened to the *** given right to think?

hey i meant no offence but too many times have i had people use chinese terms to argue with me not knowing that they don't even know the proper meaning of the terms. if you were to ask me to explain what 'chi' is i would tell you that it is simple body mechanics and breathing control (which leads to calmness of mind.....) nothing more. nothing less. when your body is wrong you can't punch hard. when you stand correctly, you instantly punch better. it is this instant effect that people (used to) find amazing. i've told of my sifu who can do the famous wing chun stand on one leg and resist push/force, right? hip out of line, can't re-direct. hip in the right postition, instant brick wall. nothing mystical. nothing 'special'. i can show you too how do it in five minutes. after those five minutes you should be able to get into correct position everytime you need to, in an instant. that is what i have always seen to be the 'mystical'. to me 'chi' is about learning how the body works best and how to get the most power behind your punch. in wing chun, this means punching from the ground up(notice my old screen-name here...). again this is from leung jan. i've mentioned the story of the two wudang fighters/brothers before. the internal guy would practice his breathing, posture, structure, stance etc, more (but he doesn't ignore the importance of forms either...) the external guys practices only forms and loose techniques. that has always been my basis of internal/external and where my definition of 'chi' comes from, except where i come from we don't talk about things in terms of 'chi'; we have always talked in terms of strength ('lik'). wing chun principles as i have been taught have always been based in terms of 'lik'. borrow energy, shed energy, dissipate energy, bounce energy, spring energy etc are not about 'chi'. it is all about 'lik' and different types thereof. this goes way back to leung jan..... (i understand that yuen kay shan has nothing to do with leung jan but it gives a frame of reference....) the thing is, i have never heard of ANY wing chun guy saying anything that even resembles At higher levels of kung fu training simple contact is all it takes to cause damage.

..there's also this chinese stuff. modern, quite minty that seems to help sore knuckles. but that's more like numbing too..... i prefer it to the dit dar jow but that might be i have really bad memories of that nasty brown stuff.

...um, can i play my old answer from the similar thread from 'our old friend'?

...i wouldn't put much faith in tit adr jow... mostly it's used as anti-bruising (or to help bruising go quicker). it's not used as a 'conditioning' agent (well, as far as i'm aware... but then what do i know....)

but then there'd be very little in terms of advancement.... there is room for both the traditional and the modern. both have their merits.

...yeah but you're missing the point... they look good, and when you're 15/16, that's more important than actual use...

....the point is, a black belt isn't just about what you know or what you can do. most of you here know that i'm not a big fan of the belt system but that is probably because of the perception of others of what a black belt means, not with the belt system itself. add to that how succeptable kids are to people's remarks and ideas and you begin to see a problem emerging (also might explain why you hear stories of kids boasting....) like it or not, the black belt does represent something AND it is beyond what you can do or know. i know that's not a very solid argument against young black belts. put it this way. lets take an average 18 year old guy who just qualified for his black belt. and an average 25 year old who has just qualified for his black belt. and an average 35 year old who has just qualified for his black belt. now lets put in the 12 year old who has just qualified for his black belt. um, get the picture? the point isn't really about size. it's about your state of development. one of the instructors at the ishin-ryu palce is a small woman (black belt, didn't ask what dan cos i'm not that rude...); smaller than me and you guys know i'm not big. the point here is she is a fully developed adult. another little scenario.. let's take two people same size+weight. one is a 24 year old woman, five years training, just attained black belt. the other is a twelve year old boy. same training, same grading. are they going to be the same in terms of ability(even though, technically they should?) i don't know.... just tossing up questions.

well, five hundred years ago the earth was flat. four hundred odd years ago, america didn't exist. one hundred years ago, travelling to europe (for me) took weeks. fifty years ago, your neighbour who you chat to everyday lived next door. so... how old is that book of yours?

....and there we have the difference between someone who knows what he is talking about and someone who does not.... you know, you are probably the first western guy (and for that i mean 'non-chinese' i have heard using a term like marrow-washing and i had no idea that those excercises were taught (assuming we are talking about the same thing here....) kung fu without chi=not kung fu is utter cack (although if you exchange the word with energy it is more 'true'). do not confuse chi (breath) with chi (energy). in most cases, when a chinese martial art talks of chi, they are talking about your breathing (or not breathing...) and your state of mind (calm, relaxed, alert, etc etc) which results in better use of energy (although it is not the same as the chi as seen in chi/kung (or is it?)... whilst these things also feature when talking about chi-kung and chi (energy) they are not the same thing. then there's chi (energy) although more commonly this is refered to using the word 'lik' meaning 'strength/power/force' (again, not directly translatable) i really can't explain what i mean using english..... the terms just do not translate as clearly as you think and the differences are slight but important.

wow.... it's not often that i feel like saying something like this but... bravo. well said.

..sorry about my rant... but this is one of those things that i'm deeply passionate about. think about it. you saying that you cannot draw is the same as the beginner who says he can't do te ashi sho.