Charlie

I appreciate the informative posts in response to my questions. I believe I understand the background and issues behind Karate in the Olympics much better than I did before. I couldn't find on the IOC webpage if it posted the vote by member country on including Karate. I suspect that countries who thought they might do well in Olympic Karate competition voted for it while countries who perceive themselves as not having a strong representation in Karate voted against it. Of course, to me that doesn't "jive" with reality since perusing almost any big Karate organization's list of member dojo shows member dojo in countries throughout the world.

I notice that this past July the International Olympic Committee (IOC) voted on allowing Squash and Karate to replace baseball and softball as events in the 2012 Olympic games. However, the majority of the IOC general committee voted "no" on allowing entry for either one. I investigated around the Internet to try to find out just which Karate association would be recognized by the IOC as the representative body of Karate if it was included in the Olympics. What I found was a somewhat convoluted history involved with Olympic Karate. It appears that Shotokan Karate is the style that is recognized by the IOC as Olympic Karate so perhaps Shotokan practioners in this forum might have additional insight. From what I understand, the World Karate Federation (WKF) is the IOC-recognized Karate association, being given this designation in 1999. However, the International Traditional Karate Federation (ITKF) claims on their website to be the official organization of Olympic Karate. Which one is it? The WKF appears to be centered mainly in Europe while the ITKF is stronger in the US. Which one is stronger in Japan? Or, does Japan have another Shotokan association that is larger than either one of those two? Also, it appears that both the WKF and ITKF originally come from Master Nishiyama who I understand supported the Japan Karate Association (JKA) as opposed to the Japan University Karate which was supported by Master Ohshima. If I understand right, Ohshima's organization is considered a more "stricter" interpretation of Master Funakoshi's teachings. My quesion is, which one is the main Shotokan style today worldwide? Is it the descendents of the JKA, or of the University (Ohshima) organizations? Since it appears that Shotokan is the IOC-designated representative of Karate, does this mean that Olympic Karate would probably be under point-sparring, semi-contact rules? I read an article by Sensei Kiyoshi Yamazaki, member of the WKF technical committee, that appears to take a "swipe" at full-contact styles, saying, "Karate must remain a participation sport and therefore, the rules must first consider the safety of the athletes: not only of those who compete in the World Championships or the Olympic Games, but also of athletes of all ages and skill levels in local, regional and national competitions, and even of those who do not compete at all. I oppose any attempt to make gladiators out of karate athletes, sacrificing their safety." (Source: http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articledt16.htm). One final question: Karate is included in the World and Pan-American Games. Which Karate organization governs the participation in these events? I would enjoy seeing Karate in the Olympics someday along with Judo, TKD, wrestling, etc

One of the previous posters on this thread appears to believe that the proper form of Karate is adherence to it's "original," classical, traditional, Okinawan "roots." Actually, if you want to be true to the origin of Karate, then don't you have to go even further back to when Karate was a martial art in China before it came to Okinawa? Furthermore, don't many believe that before it was in China it actually came from Buddhist practitioners in India in the very distant past? Thus, along this line of reasoning, wouldn't Okinawan Karate be considered a relatively "newfangled" modification of the original, pure form of this martial art from India? I can understand that someone is attracted to and satisfied with studying what they believe to be the "pure," traditional form of an art. But, it is problematic to say that newer, modified forms of this art damage the "view" or complete picture of what this art means and signifies for the current community in which it is practiced in.

I read an article recently about martial art scams at: http://www.e-budokai.com/interviews/marc.htm. The site that you quote appears to be a classic example of a martial art's scam according to the above article. For example, the site declares the techniques to be so Super Secret that the government doesn't want you to know about them. It basically claims that it's the best fighting system in the universe. Furthermore, it liberally drops the names of elite military units and government law enforcement agencies. If this site stays up for awhile, it could be very useful for us to use to illustrate what a typical martial art's scam looks like. As the article I mention says, people who operate scams like this are so far into their own world that they may not even realize they're deceiving anyone, especially themselves.

If HapKiDo competitions are broadcast on ESPN, I'll eagerly watch them and I'm fairly sure I'll really enjoy them. I know that the most martial art competitions don't show all of the capabilities or techniques inherent in each individual style, but it's interesting to see how the different styles look and act when involved in regulated fighting matches. During a competition, another discipline may employ a technique I'm familiar with in a way I never thought of before. Thus, it can also be a learning experience as well as entertainment. I wonder why ESPN chose HapKiDo and not any of the other numerous styles there are out there? Or maybe they have and we haven't heard about it?

Three English-language books that are key references for Sabaki-style Karate: Fighting Karate- Hideyuki Ashihara More Fighting Karate- Hideyuki Ashihara Sabaki Method: Karate in the Inner Circle- Joko Ninomiya The Ashihara books are out of print but available through some Internet sites for premium prices. Judo (Kodokan Judo was mentioned in an ealier post): Best Judo- Isao Inakuma

Is it true that Wado-ryu is based on the Sabaki-method of Karate? If so, how is Wado-ryu different from other Sabaki-based styles like Ashihara and Enshin?

From what I understand Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin Karate tournaments are full contact/ full force and the black belt divisions don't use pads. Does anyone know of other styles/organizations that promote "knockdown" tournaments where competitors don't have to "pull their punches?"

Your local Enshin dojo in Charlotte may be sending a group to participate and/or observe at the Capital Sabaki Challenge that's at the end of January in northern Virginia. If you would like to see a full contact tournament that might be a good opportunity.

One of the other members of this forum, named "Feels," posted a link to a video of clips from what appear to be Kyokushin tournaments and sparring sessions. I couldn't find the thread that contained her post to give the link here, but in the clip, it shows someone being knocked-out by what looks like a yoko geri. Also, another scene shows someone being knocked across the dojo by what looks like a yoko geri. I've tried using yoko geri in our full-contact kumite at my dojo because it seems to me that since we don't use it that much, then my opponents would be thus unsure of how to defend against it. I've found this to be true but my yoko geri haven't had much effect because it's hard to put as much force into them as can be put into a mai geri, mawashi geri, or senkaku geri. Usually, my yoko geri will "tap" their chest with no apparent effect. They'll then swat it away if I haven't lowered it already and proceed with their counter-attack. Perhaps if one can catch someone "coming in" with a yoko geri to their chin it might drop them, like the person in the clip I mention above appeared to do.

Here's a site with an extensive list of the off-shoots from Kyokushin. There's an amazing number of them: http://www.australiankyokushin.com/lineage.shtml Perhaps someone, someday, can combine all of the "family trees" from the different karate styles to present the complete family diagram of karate. Sounds like a fun project for someone with their own website to post it to.

If you would like to see some clips from the main Enshin Sabaki Challenge, look in their website at: http://sabaki.enshin.com/. Under "multimedia" are some clips from past tournaments. You can also buy DVD's and videos showing the full-contact bouts from each year's tournaments. You don't have to go to Colorado to compete. Most, if not all, Enshin and Ashihara dojo in the US and other countries sponsor their own local or regional Sabaki tournaments once a year. The New Jersey Sabaki regional was last month (September). My dojo is sponsoring a Sabaki tournament at the end of January, 2006 for the Washington, DC/Northern Virginia area. I hope to be able to compete in it in a junior kyu semi-contact category. Anyone is welcome and encouraged to compete in the kata, semi-contact, or full contact (black belt) divisions. If you want to check later to get the full details for entering our tournament, please check our website in the next few months at: http://www.virginiakarate.com/

Sensei Mike, I notice your profile says "Shotokan and Knock-Down Kumite." Perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, but it looks like you're trying to combine the art of Shotokan with the practicality and toughness of Kyokushin and need to be independent because there isn't an existing association that already combines these two styles of Karate. Is this correct? If so, then I don't think you're alone in that. There are probably other independent dojo out there that are doing or trying to do the same thing. Perhaps you all could unite and start a new style or association? On a different subject in response to other posts on this thread...are there really associations out there that collect their dues from their member dojo and don't give anything in return? If so, which are they so I can avoid those in the future? It doesn't appear that the Enshin association does this, because the HQ (honbu?) appears to be very active and participatory in our activities and curriculum.

This actually happened to me but not by a stranger, it was an ex-girlfriend (long story). Anyway, she was fairly strong and was swinging with full force round-house punches that probably would have done some damage if they had landed (she wasn't chubby but she did have some muscle and was almost as tall as I was). This happened before I started studying Karate but I used arm parries that I had learned a long time ago in a TKD class and not a single one of her punches landed. After she started getting tired I was able to grab both her wrists and hold them until she calmed down a little. However, there were finger-shaped bruises left on her wrists from where I was holding on very tightly because she was still trying to punch. I didn't feel guilty about leaving the bruises on her wrists because she was trying her hardest to hurt me and better for her to have bruises on her wrist than damage to a more sensitive part of her body like her trunk or face if I had decided to hit back. She was trying to kick also but I was able to turn my body while holding her arms so that they didn't land either. I guess this might be a good example of how martial arts training can be unexpectedly valuable.

Perhaps another reason that no one in your dojo ever says no in Japanese is because, from what I understand, the words "hai" and "ie" or "ee" don't translate as the direct equivalent as Yes and No in English. In Japanese it depends on the situation as to how you say Yes or No. I've heard that a better translation for "Hai" is, "I hear you," And for "ie(ee)" is, "that isn't correct." As you can see, that isn't necessarily the same as saying yes or no. The way most Japanese in my experience express agreement or disagreement is by using the affirmative or negative conjugations of the verb in play in either formal or informal tense, depending on the situation. Thus, I don't think you could usually just answer "ee" to a question without adding the negative verb also. For example, if the Sensei asks in Japanese, "Kino dojo ni kimashitaka? (You came to the dojo yesterday?)," The appropriate negative reply would be something like, "Ie, kimasen deshita (No, I didn't come- or alternately: That's incorrect, I didn't come.)." If the question is asking for an expression of willingness or ability (Can you come to training this weekend?) then it's an even different conjugation of the verb to express willingness or ability and Hai or Ee aren't appropriate answers. From what I've seen in these forums, there appears to be some members that are very knowledgeable about Japanese so I hope that they will correct me if I'm wrong.

Several of the entries above detail somewhat what Enshin is about but I'll go into it in more detail since that is the style I study. The founder of Enshin- Kancho Joko Ninomiya, trained, studied, and/or taught in Sumo, Judo, Kyokushin, and Ashihara. Thus, Enshin has elements from all of those disciplines. Enshin has most of the kicks, punches, blocks, and parries that Kyokushin has, plus the full-contact/full-force style of kumite. Enshin also contains many of the grappling, throwing, grabbing, leverage, and sweeping techniques from Sumo and Judo. But, the core of Enshin is the Sabaki method that it gets from Ashihara. In case you're unfamiliar with it, the Sabaki method is using a circular or pendulum motion of your body and/or limbs to redirect your opponents attack and/or focus your own attack on your opponent's weak or blind spot. If you check the Enshin website (Chirath provided a link to it above) and look in the Sabaki Challenge section under Multimedia, you can view some video clips from competitors using the Sabaki method in matches at the Sabaki Challenge. The website also has some step-by-step examples of some Sabaki techniques.

I couldn't find an Enshin dojo in Kobe on their website (only Osaka and Kyoto), but Ashihara's English website lists a Kobe dojo but without contact information. If you can read Japanese I would suggest looking at Ashihara's Japanese website to get contact information on their Kobe dojo.

Taisabaki, or sabaki method, is a method of circular and/or pendulum motions used in combatting your opponent. It's the key technique for Ashihara and Enshin karate. If you watch some Karate matches with karate-ka using the sabaki method, such as at: http://sabaki.enshin.com/ you'll observe that the fighters are constantly circling, swinging or moving while parrying and attacking in order to try to put themselves at an advantage over their opponent by placing themselves in the their opponents blind or weak spot. Sabaki also tries to use the opponents momentum against them by redirecting the opponents attack into a different direction that puts one in an advantageous position.

I was interested in Jiu Jitsu in the NOVA area myself and was about to ask the same question when I noticed your post. On the Internet it shows two schools in the NOVA area. One is part of the Gracia association of BJJ and has a dojo in Alexandria. Its' website is at: http://www.gracieva.com/. The other is called Yamasaki Academy and conducts training in Springfield, Chantilly, and Rockville, MD. Its' website is: http://www.grappling.com/. Does anyone know which of these two schools is better?

Someone already mentioned it, but I'll emphasize, that two Kyokushin spin-offs- Ashihara and Enshin, stress full-contact training and tournaments. Both appear to have dojos in Australia. The Ashihara website is at: http://www.ashihara.com/website/ The Enshin website is at: http://www.enshin.com/index2.html Both organizations sponsor tournaments in many countries although I don't know if they organize any in Australia.

Perhaps you might try hiji uchi (elbow strike) to try to get inside so they won't be able to punch you as much. I'm not sure how Shotokan does it but my style teaches to step forward with your front foot and use your front hand to sweep your opponents arms up and out of the way and then you step forward with your back foot, pivot, and strike their head or body with your reverse (back) elbow. Then stay close and inside and use knee kicks, short punches and elbows, and throws and sweeps if Shotokan allows that.

You're really in luck, the grandmaster/chief of Enshin Karate (the style I follow) is located in Denver. Kancho Joko Ninomiya's own dojo is in Denver. Also, several of his early students have started their own Enshin dojo in the Denver area. If interested please check out the website at: http://www.enshin.com/index2.html

The other day after our training session in the dojo was over, our sensei put on the movie/documentary, "Fighting Black Kings." While we were watching it, our sensei commented, "I wonder what these American fighters are doing now?" I subsequently searched around the Internet and saw that William Oliver passed-away this past Nov 2004. But I couldn't find anything on Willie Williams. Does anyone know what he or the other Americans in that movie are doing now? In case you aren't familiar with it, "Fighting Black Kings" is a Japanese documentary, translated and dubbed into English, about the 1st All-World Karate Championship sponsored by Kyokushin-kai in 1975. The documentary spends a lot of time on the American delegation, prominently featuring Willie Williams and William Oliver.

On several different martial arts forums/blogs I've read posts by Shotokan students who disparage, albeit politely, full-contact Karate styles. However, I have yet to find a full-contact Karate student posting disparaging comments about Shotokan. I wonder why? Anyway, it appears to me that some Shotokan students don't understand that comparing Shotokan to full-contact styles is like the old apples to oranges comparison analogy. The two styles appear to me to exist for different purposes. Shotokan's emphasis on the single, perfect "killing" technique, the numerous katas, and sparring for points instead of effectiveness of contact appear to be aimed at teaching refined and artistic Karate skills. That's fine because I think there's a tremendous amount that someone can learn and absorb from that style. However, full-contact exists for a different reason, to defeat your adversary quickly and effectively. Any art to it is incidental. And to answer the original post of this chain, full-contact skills are valuable and valid. Just a few weeks ago, a middle-aged man riding his bicycle here in DC on a bike path was attacked and strangled to death by a mentally deranged person. That's one of the kind of situations that I think many of us full-contact students train for. We don't want to go out like that. If all of our years of training saves us, or some other person, in one instance, from death or serious injury, then they were definitely worth it. Full contact helps prepare us for real fights. We learn what it feels like for someone to push, hit, or kick us full force, so it doesn't faze us if it happens for real. We learn how much force we need to employ to stop our adversary and what that feels like to our fists, feet, knees, forearms, etc. Perhaps ironically, having full-contact knowledge and experience makes it less likely that we'll have to use it in a real fight. I've already seen that an expression of quiet self-confidence and assuredness projects an aura of strength that often causes the potential attacker to back-down. This self-confidence and assuredness comes from countless hours in the dojo or gym that provide us with our confidence that we can take what might come our way and give it back more effectively. I'll give you an example: I was riding on a city bus in another city on a business trip late one night last month and saw a rough-looking guy harrassing a woman on the bus. I told him to knock it off. When I turned away he punched me in the mouth (I know, I should have been more aware). I believe he was either trying to get me to run away or inciting me to fight back so I would get arrested (you know the saying-it's always the second guy or retaliator who gets in trouble). My experience with full-force sparring in the dojo helped me realize immediately that his punch was weak, that the guy didn't know how to fight, and was therefore not a threat that I really needed to worry about physically. I calmly turned towards him, looked him in the eye, and said, forcefully but not loudly, "Don't do that again." You could have "heard a pin drop" on the bus as the other passengers watched to see what would happen. I held my gaze on his eyes until he dropped his gaze after a couple of seconds and he sat quietly, looking down, for the rest of the ride.