Charlie

It's a TEST. A test of spirit (as Meguro pointed out), technique, toughness, stamina, strength, courage, etc. I think it's part of the same reason why Kyokushin dojo are known for accepting "walk-in" or "dojo storming" challenges from people who walk in off the street and challenge the black belts or instructors to a no-hold's barred fight. It's believed that accepting challenges or the multi-kumite belt tests show that one is ready, willing, and able to employ his or her karate with the proper skill, technique and strength to defeat any adversary or adversaries.

Many of the fighters featured in the Fighting Black Kings documentary went on to start their own styles. Sato (the champion of the tournament) started Satojuku (Odo- The Champion's Way) which is gaining in popularity in Japan. It's like Kyokushin but I understand it tries to employ more "precise" knockdown techniques than traditional Kyokushin. Royama (2nd place) recently started a "break-away" Kyokushin organization, called Kyokushin-kan, after he became dissastified with the leadership of IKO(1). Joko Ninomiya (3rd place) started Enshin Karate. As Odo, Seido, Enshin, Daido Juku, Shidokan, and other Kyokushin "offshoots" created by Japanese Kyokushin students from the 70's increase in popularity, influence, and membership, I think Fighting Black Kings will become to be even more recognized as a seminal record of a crucial juncture in karate history. That period in the 70's appears to be when the early students of full-contact, knockdown karate took that art and began developing it into the powerful, even more effective techniques that exist today in the many styles that "originated" to some degree from Kyokushin. Also, I think the creation of K-1 may have been influenced by the "All-World" tournament concept.

Actually, I've heard you're not supposed to lean on the wall in the training area (dojang, dojo, etc) because it's not considered "proper." But, I lightly lean on the wall sometimes. I don't think it's too big of a deal and probably wouldn't be commented on in most MA schools or by most instructors or advanced students.

I'm just a beginner in Enshin, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but I understand that a lot of the throws and sweeps in Enshin come from Judo. However, I've read that Kancho Ninomiya and many of the other "old school" kyokushin students in the 70's sometimes used judo techniques in their kumite training so it could be that the judo techniques in Enshin come from judo "via" kyokushin. I'm told that many of the parries in Enshin are very similar to Aikido techniques but I've never read of Hideyuki Ashihara or Joko Ninomiya training in Aikido so I'm not sure if that's where they came from or if it's just coincidence. By the way, I think we've contributed to some of the same threads on E-Budo. I'm "cla68" there because "charlie" was already taken. From your posts there you appear to have a lot more history with Kyokushin and it's "offshoots" than I do so I hope you could clear things up for me if I'm incorrect.

In Enshin, which has some origins in Kyokushin, I understand there is a 3-man kumite for 2nd kyu and 10-man kumite for shodan. The matches are supposed to be full-speed/contact and conducted according to Sabaki tournament rules. I believe there's one minute of rest between each match and the person being tested has to win at least 50% of them.

I'd say a grappling, sweeping, grabbing, or throwing art would complement Kyokushin nicely. For example, if you combine Judo with Kyokushin, then you have many of the elements that other Kyokushin "offshoots" like Shidokan, Daido Juku, Ashihara, and Enshin have incorporated to try to improve on Kyokushin's basic elements.

I don't think this is necessary, because I think your site will be looking really good once the local school contacts are on there, but, would it be possible to display some actual stories of people using Saishu Ryu techniques in real situations (Iraq, Afghanistan)? Like I said, I don't think doing this is necessary for your website. I guess it's just basically because I would be interested in reading stories like that since it's unlikely that I'll ever actually witness events like that myself.

Your website doesn't list the locations and contact information for your local schools/dojo that I could find.

There's a lot of really good advice in this thread. If you're studying under a widely respected and admired master, which sounds like it is the case, then you might want to reconsider switching to another style as others have already suggested. However, if you ever do want to study a "full-contact" style, this website lists most if not all of the "offshoots" of Kyokushin. These are usually full-contact styles. If you look at the website for each organization, they should list their member dojo and you can find one that is near where you live. http://www.australiankyokushin.com/flavours.shtml

I agree with you that "heavy contact" is a more accurate label. Even the UFC competitors I doubt practice too much with the same conditions as in the ring because of the likelihood of injury. Another example is Daidojuku which allows full force strikes to the head with bare knuckles, but they wear heavy protective headgear with full face shields. I got punched in the face three times full force this past weekend in our annual tournament (my opponent was disqualified for it) and I've had a non-stop headache since. I don't know how we'd be able to keep training if we were constantly hitting each other in the face like that with minimal padding on our hands. In the movie "Fighting Black Kings" which shows the "old school" Kyokushin fighters training with punches to the face it appears to me that they're pulling their punches somewhat or turning up their knuckles to make contact with the palms of their hands. Anyway, if you're not used to being hit full-force in the body you might have an adjustment period to go through when you train at that other dojo. I think it will be a good experience for you. Perhaps your Chong Nhu sensei will have some advice for you on how to approach it.

I think this was touched on in previous posts but I wanted to clarify...I believe most MA tournaments use weight divisions because you're competing against other, trained martial artists. This means that technique and skill-wise, everyone is much more on a level playing field than people you encounter "on the street." Therefore, in a tournament situation, size and weight do matter, especially in full-contact or knockdown style events. I just competed in the "lightweight" division in a knockdown-style karate tournament this past weekend and I've got some mild injuries to recover from. After watching the heavier weight divisions, I'm fairly sure that I would be more seriously injured if I had competed against them. And I do agree that competing in a full-contact or knockdown style event is of great benefit to a martial artist, no matter what the style. You learn how to use your techniques against someone (usually a stranger) who is resisting you fully, because they want to beat you. It's most likely against someone you don't train with so you're not used to their way of fighting. You have to deal with the adrenalin rush, the psychological pressure, and often injury if you have to fight a second or third match without having time to recover fully from your first match. Your body and mind gains experience from being kicked, punched, thrown, and/or contorted by someone who is doing it as hard as they can. You risk injury and disfigurement, even though it's not a great risk, it is there and therefore strengthens your mind and will. I respect people's opinion who say that a true martial artist doesn't seek to actually get in a fight with someone, controlled tournament or not. But, I wouldn't agree with someone who says that there isn't any benefit to competing.

There's also a fairly good recap/synopsis of the event on the WCL site at: http://www.worldcombatleague.com/current-event.asp No mention anywhere on the site (that I could find) on if or when it might be shown on TV.

DVD's and videos from the Sabaki Challenge full-contact, knockdown Karate tournaments: http://www.enshin.com/index2.html They're listed under the "Store" section on the main page.

Perhaps should try to find them another school. I'm biased, but I would suggest a Kyokushin or one of it's "offshoot" styles because most Kyokushin-related styles try very hard to teach what they feel to be "practical" karate. A website that lists all the off-shoots of Kyokushin is at: http://www.australiankyokushin.com/flavours.shtml. Of course, I'm sure that there are plenty of Shotokan, Korean, and Chinese martial arts schools that also teach very effective, practical skills. I've heard that most of the traditional Okinawa styles also try to teach serious skills, also. A web site that lists martial arts schools by zip code is at: http://www.martialinfo.com/. The zip code locator is near the bottom of the main page. I've found it to be amazingly compreshensive in listing most, if not all, of the available MA schools in the US.

My wife thinks UFC is boring for the same reason. But, I like watching grappling as much as stand-up fighting so I don't get bored. Nevertheless, I think it's significant that one of the biggest, professional MMA organizations in the world- K1, structures most of its matches as stand-up fights. I think many find stand-up fighting to be more entertaining which is a reason that I think Chuck Norris' new World Combat League has a chance at catching on. To change the subject a little, I think it's interesting what often happens in UFC matches when both fighters' core skills are in grappling. I've seen it happen several times in this situation that they both will "duke-it-out" instead of either one trying to take it to the ground.

I just read the rules on their website. It looks like it's set-up to provide some good action by allowing full-force kicks and punches to the head down to the thighs. But, the competitors have to wear padded gloves and shin guards. I can understand wearing gloves since many states don't allow bare-knuckle face punching. I'm not sure why they wear shin guards though since most other full-contact karate or kick-boxing tournaments don't require them. Elbow strikes aren't allowed either. Why don't they allow the competitors to wear elbow pads and use elbow strikes? Also, sweeps, grabs, and throws aren't allowed. You're not allowed to grab your opponents kicking leg and sweep him/her to the ground. In fact, the rules specifically state that judo techniques are prohibited. They probably do this to prevent any clinching or "stand-up wrestling" from occurring, but there are other ways to prevent that such as allowing grabbing to occur on only one side of the body at a time and only for a few seconds. Anyway, it still looks like it would be enjoyable to watch. Hopefully ESPN or Spike will broadcast the Jan 21 event sometime so those of us who can't attend the event can watch it later.

From what I understand, the indications of an MA scam are: - Claims the techniques are so super secret and so effective that "they" don't want you to know about them. - Liberally "drops" the names of elite military units and government law enforcement agencies. - Says that the moves are so simple that they can be mastered by anyone in a short amount of time. Like someone else said in this thread previously, the techniques may be valid approaches to self-defense/personal combat taken from one or various martial arts styles. However, from what I've read about the kind of person who feels inclined to market their product this way, the person behind this may very well have some serious personal issues. In fact, they may be so deluded about what they're promoting that they actually believe that their product IS the personal combat system mainly used by the world's elite military units and top law enforcement agencies. Would you want to buy a product or learn something from someone like that?

In my dojo recently was a student who trained with us for several months. He said that the had studied other martial arts before, but didn't go into any more detail than that. He just quietly and dilligently trained with us as a white belt. I found out recently that he is a second or third degree black belt in TKD. I really respect that he didn't feel the need to mention this to any of us and just quietly went about learing our style along with the other beginners like myself. Your story reminded me of him.

I believe that currently IKO's 1, 2, and 3 all have their own "world championship" events. I think it would be great if they all reunited because then all of the great fighters from the three organizations would be able to compete against each other without worrying about political reprecussions.

There's lots of good, well-thought-out advice posted in this thread, but, much of it may appear to be conflicting. However, I don't believe that to really be the case, because the subject of dealing with bullying, harrassing, or aggressive behavior encompasses so many situations, environments, variables, and cultural norms and mores. What may work in one situation may not work in another. Perhaps if I can give some personal examples, it might help show what may have been more or less effective in one situation, but probably wouldn't have been in another. In junior high, a group of kids were bullying me incessantly, to the point that whenever I saw them they would do something like throw something at me, push me, etc. I finally had enough and challenged the most aggressive of them to fight and we went where no adults would see us and then beat each other up fairly well. That being my first fight and having no martial arts or any kind of training, I took a lot of damage to my face, but no permanent damage. He took some damage too but I'd say I basically lost the fight. However, they never really bothered me again after that except for occasional taunts. In fact, I never really had to worry about them again after that. The teachers saw the damage to our faces when we showed up at school the next day, but didn't do anything about it beyond asking me if there was a problem that they needed to get involved with and I said no. In high school my family moved to the Navajo reservation in Arizona. Frequently I was the target of pushes, foot stomps, and taunting. However, if I had decided to fight over it, I would have been in way over my head because I would have had to fight a good percentage of the school because I believe the bullying was due to racial animosity. I just ignored it and after awhile I was left more or less alone. One way I dealt with it was to have friends around me if someone I thought might want to give me some trouble was around. Shortly after finishing basic training in the Army I was on a bus with other recent Army enlistees going to a different base to continue our training. Two of them who were sitting near me were harrassing me for several hours, saying what they would "do to me" when we got the next base and that I'd better watch myself, because they would be watching for me, etc. The bus stopped at a cafeteria for us to eat breakfast. After I got my food I saw that the two guys were sitting together with an empty seat next to them. Even though there were plenty of empty seats at other tables, I went sat down next to them. They looked surprised and said a few things to me, which I ignored, and then never said anything more to me after that. Whenever I saw them after that they just ignored me. If I had fought them I would have gotten in trouble with the military. If I had "told on them," I'm fairly sure I would have been told to deal with it myself if no actual violence was going on. I guess finding a way to "stand up" to them without using violence worked in that situation. "Judo" throws, as mentioned previously, may also be an effective response to physical bullying, because it is a tough, but non-striking method of dealing with the situation. An acquaintance of mine told me about how he was physically harrassed in high school by group of students. In his case, he had some karate and judo training. One day he decided he'd had enough and when he noticed one of the bullys approaching to push him from behind, he executed an over-the-shoulder throw on the guy (is that called "ippon seoi nage" or something like that?). The guy landed hard, got-up and threatened him with retaliation, but he and his buddies never bothered my acquaintance again. I guess my point is different things may work for different situations. If we're careful not to act too quickly or impulsively, we can probably find an effective resolution. Like Master Kano said, "Consider fully, act decisively."

Did the tournament take place already? If so, how did it go and what happened? I'm interested in hearing you describe, in as much detail as you have the time or patience to write, exactly how your matches in the tournament go or went and if they followed the patterns that previous posters have predicted in this thread. My organization is sponsoring a full-contact, knockdown tournament in my area at the end of January. Since our rules are geared towards Sabaki-method practitioners (Enshin and Ashihara), most of the competitors I understand usually come from those organizations. However, we also get participants from Muay Thai, Kyokushin, and other styles and I'm looking forward to seeing how the different styles who enter do against each other.

From what I've seen, the other members of this forum belong to many different styles that all offer something unique and beneficial and can probably suggest some that you might consider. Along that line, I can describe what I'm familiar with, which is Karate based on the Sabaki method. You're probably familiar with the Sabaki method, which is an approach to stand-up fighting that stresses using circular body and foot movements to redirect the opponents energy away from you and using that same energy or momentum to move to a position of advantage with regard to your opponent. This approach usually includes grabs, sweeps, and throws as well as punches, strikes, and kicks. As far as I know, Ashihara and Enshin are the two major organizations centered on this style. From what I understand, both organizations have dojo in Australia that can be located on their websites. I don't know, though, if any of their dojo are located near where you live. Ashihara is at: http://www.ashihara.com/website/ Enshin Australia is at: http://www.enshin.com.au/main.htm

Mas Oyama also trained for a long time in Judo which I believe also taught ground grappling.

I participated in my first tournament-style match this past weekend. It was actually just a local event involving the three dojo that make up our local area Enshin organization. However, it was made to look as much like a tournament as possible, with referee, judges, scoring table, and a section for spectators (the parents and other relatives of the competitors). The same thing happened to me as described earlier in this thread. Most of the tactics and techniques that I regularly and often effectively employ in dojo sparring practice evaporated from my mind as soon as the match started. I ended-up feeling very clumsy and reactive instead of in control and alert. Afterwards, watching the videotape that my wife took of me during my two matches, I could see that I didn't appear to do as bad as I thought I did. However, I see that I need to get the techniques more ingrained into my head so that I can do them more subconsciously and try to get used to the tournament-style pressure that made me lose focus on what I wanted to do in the matches. All-in-all it was a really good experience and gave me some perspective on my involvement and training in martial arts than I probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise.