elbows_and_knees

experience is the best teacher. This is why I advocate all MA getting in the ring at least once. Until you use your training in real time against someone uncooperative (sparring is not the same) you will never really know.

definitely move. sidestep around it, or shuffle backward. Also, you can just slap it down to the ground from above. You are not risking injury to your arms, as you are not blocking in the line of the kick - you are slapping the leg from above and knocking it downward. I usually use that in conjunction with a shuffle backward, as knocking it to the ground forces them to put a lot of weight on it - hopefully giving me enough time to kick that leg before they recover.

yes, they would have. 1. as stated earlier, the forms are now pretty much extinct. 2. muay thai was created to GET AWAY from traditional stuff - many of the techniques were too hard to pull off in fights and were considered useless. Not really sure if we're in a disagreement here or not. Any style contains many techniques that will be hard to pull of in a fight. The reason I brought up Muay Thai was because the original topics was about a quote saying that drills had to be derived from forms. I used Muay Thai as an example to illustrate how the sport aspect is different from the traditional aspect, but yet how the sport aspect would not be what it is (i.e.--contain the moves it does and they way their executed) without the tradition of such styles as Krabi Krabong and other Thai arts. However, having never studied Muay Thai, I must admit my knowledge is limited to documentaries and information found in books. if you would please be kind enough to share with me why you think Muay Thai would be what it is today without the basis of the traditional Thai arts, from a first hand experience, I would like to hear your viewpoint and take it into consideration. traditional thai styles have always had a focus on fighting. Even back in the day, they trained so that they could compete, and also to fight in war. Many of the best thai boxers were soldiers. If you watch thai training, you see pad drills and sparring drills - nothing that can't be done without a form or other preset traditional drill. That said, the forms have not been preserved to pefection - they have actually been forgotten. But that hasn't stopped muay thai from being effective. krabbi krabong, really doesn't have that much influence on muay thai. It's more akin to TCMA in nature. There are a lot of weapons, primarily the sword, and it's empty hand stuff is a lot of pressure point striking, locks, throws, strikes, etc. only about 30% of what you will see in it is used in muay thai. we've been focusing on that aspect for centuries. As stated above, competition in thai styles is not new. Muay thai was when it went mainstream around 1920, but muay chaiya, muay lopburi, muay lon lon, etc. all competed as well. Competition was a part of what they did, just as it is today. as stated above, it has already been forgotten. muay boran is an attempt to recover some of what was lost. It's a combination of what is known about the older styles. We will always know that the old fighters were also soldiers, that part is common knowledge, but as for the styles themselves, they are mostly gone.

not necessarily. Not everyone trains with hopes of being a better fighter. Actually, most people don't. Why do you think it is that taiji for health is so popular? most people will tell you they started training because they were inspired by a movie or that they want a different means of getting in shape - look at how tae bo caught on. Most people do not want to learn how to fight. That said though, I personally am in agreement with you. I think ANY style, be it traditional or "sport" you make you a better fighter.

IME, it depends on the situation. If they have not yet started fighting, I get between them. Once they have started, by getting between them, you are only getting into the line of fire of two guys - not good for you. I typically restrain one guy from behind and turn him to the side. When guys know the bouncers are breaking up the situation, they sometimes stop. However, as I am turned to the side, I can kick them away in case they keep coming, since I have the other guy tied up and can't use my hands. Also, you ideally want another bouncer with you when you break up a situation. we are supposed to signal eachother when we see an altercation about to happen, so that there are already several of us in place if it escalates. Admittedly, I don't always do that - it depends on how much time I thnk I have, but for your own safety, you should always work in groups. In addition, when you have people about to have an altercation, they tend to back down when they are out numbered. So, for example, a guy harassing a bartender would be more likely to try and fight me if I'm alone (or in your example, keep trying to fight the other guy) than he would if there were five of us on him.

same here. Some boxers call it a shotgun jab.

why is it that whenever people see something they feel is an inconsistency in the MA, the first thing they say is something along the lines of werterners are lazy and anything wrong is directly the fault of they way a style is trained in the west? As if there are no lousy easterners...

that is true. And quite obviously, it has been a contributing factor in hurting the TCMA we see today.

definitely, but that's actually nothing that's limited to martial arts. Actually, MA can be counter productive in such situations, IMO, as they emphasize a spiritual and philosophical side and in some cases, point sparring, which can counter the instinct of actually hitting. We have had a taiji and kempo guys who both got torn up on the job. The ones we have that handle situations the best are wrestlers, football players and guys who have just had lots of fights and experience. As they say, experience is the best teacher. Football players tend to be less refined than martial artists - they just have that "ARRRR, HULK SMASH!!" attitude and it serves well as they are used to contact and are used to dishing it out. MA training on its own really doesn't override the fight or flight response in all cases, even though most people would like for us to believe that they do. If that were true, you wouldn't see MA in the street freezing up in fights (which I've seen on many occasions), even if it is their first fight. that's very true. that is the beginning of the differences we talk about. In bjj, for example, you will learn them as you go along. In the beginning, you aren't expected to tap anyone - they throw you to the sharks to teach you how to survive. After a few months or drilling and rolling, you are relaxing, working technique and becoming harder to tap. it's a side by side experience, which is why the learning curve is faster. in boxing and muay thai, you will drill, but you should be sparring within 3 - 4 months. In judo, you are usually allowed to randori after you have gotten falling down. Contrast this to "strict" traditional training where everything is in a seperate stage, and you see what I mean. A friend of mine studied xingyi under the student of a well known master, and after 6 months, he had only learned one stance. After that, he was taught one punch. Where I trained, it wasn't as strict, but it was a while before we were allowed to spar. actually, if you look at real muay thai, they teach you not to bounce either. thai footwork is far less mobile than a shuffling boxer. That is why many schools today use boxing footwork. however, boxers are still very rooted, despite the shuffling they do.

not necessarily. in reference to the ring, strategies are different than they are in the street, but the apps aren't oil and water at all. The overall main strategy is still the same - finish it as fast as possible. An o soto gari that bounces your head off the ground and knocks you out is no different than being in shiai and getting an ippon from an o soto. The application is the same. that is why the learning curve in a streetfighting sense is higher with "sport" styles, IMO. the application is the same in live training and on the street - I don't have to modify it in class so that I don't seriously hurt my partner. On the job, everything I use daily is what I learned in sport styles - clinching, positioning, chokes and throws. Never have I used something I learned in karate or kung fu that I did not also learn in judo and muay thai. one of the most effective chinese styles I've ever seen is also trained and competed in sport format - shuai chiao.

Could you elaborate on this point, please? I am interested in your opinion, as I don't know a whole lot about the monks. the warrior monks of today are said by most to merely train wushu. What the monks of today are doing is not what the monks of old did.

all of which are pretty much extinct now. muay boran is an attempt to try and recreate what's left of the various styles. yes, they would have. 1. as stated earlier, the forms are now pretty much extinct. 2. muay thai was created to GET AWAY from traditional stuff - many of the techniques were too hard to pull off in fights and were considered useless. the same way it's been going. I was fascinated about muay thai back in 1986 when I first heard of it. it's always had it's popularity, just moreso now, because of mma. boxing is one of the most popluar sports in the US and has been for centuries. the problem is that you likely didn't find real krav maga. today, you can become certified to teach it in little of no time. it's largely a McSchool. that's irrelevant. the ferrari came from the model t. Which is superior? they are two totally different cars. a sport ma and somethng traditional it may have stemmed from are two totally different styles. what is your definition of art? mine is expression through fighting, not kata. consequently, kata will never mean much to me, although I will always pursue MA, as I have for the past 22 years. Once again, you can't define another person's perception of art.

it's not about being a wimp. Even a wimp can cut you. it's not about knowing you're breaking the law, either. It's about rage. pure and simple in many cases. when you are fighting for your life, you don't have time to think "dang, I'm breaking the law" - you are fighting. Over the weekend, I struck a guy in the throat with my forearm then took him down and dragged him by his feet (so his head would bounce around the concrete) I broke a rule by hitting him, as we are not supposed to strike, only restrain. when you are fighting, you don't think about that. I didn't think about it until after the fact, cuz I'm usually good about not striking anyone unless they hit me first, or unless there are multiples - which is what I was against right before this happened. that's why they created sparring gear. mouthpiece, gloves, and headergear and you are set. Also, I am an advocate of all MA stepping into the ring at least once for a similar reason. With kata, you can hit full force, but you are only striking air... it doesn't make you stronger, it doesn't help your timing, distancing, etc. When I trained kung fu, there was a guy who was always punching the air full force -he looked impressive. But, whenever we worked pad drills and he hit me, he couldn't budge me at all, not did his strikes hurt. He would always look at his fist, like something was wrong with it. The problem wasn't his fist, the problem was that he did no bag training - he only hit air.

somewhere in this thread I relayed that back in the day, only few forms were taught in kung fu, and I as taught karate in the same manner by my teacher. I just happened to find this online, referencing other karateka who were trained this way: "Miyagi's training in Karate was very hard, and he taught only seisan and seienchin [beyond the required sanchin kata] kata." http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=121

there are a lot of different issues here, as there are a lot of different styles. I know very few people who are scared of karate and kung fu, however, I do know people who have some sort of respect for it. You gotta remember that people's perceptions are based on what they see in the media. When people find out I do muay thai and grappling, they are like "wow, you're an ultimate fighter?? that's so cool!" When MTV ran that "I'm a muay thai fighter" special, people were coming up to me and asking me if I fought bare knuckle and how scary something like that would be. In my kung fu days, people always asked me if I could do flips and run up walls, since wushu is predominantly what you see in the media. So, to that end, the answer is both yes and no. How a person perceives an art will differ from person to person, but the media will likely have some influence.

by design, traditional styles take longer to learn - that is no secret. the only exception I know of is shuai chiao. SC is very hands on - you start drilling early and you spar a lot. they follow a similar model to what modern fighting systems follow, and they always have followed that format. Many other styles are the opposite - master technique, learn the forms, start iron body training, etc. the emphasis is not placed on fighting in the beginning. It's placed more on development of technique, which is not a bad thing, it's just slower than doing them both at the same time. I know a guy who did nothing but stance training for 3 months before he was shown anything else - then he was only shown one punch. He progressed from there. IMO, this is ridiculous, but back in the day, things like that were the norm.

you're very correct - kata have a wealth of information. But theory and application are two different things. You can't do kata for an hour a day then defend against a knife. you will die. You have to apply what you know. That is why drilling and sparring are so benfeicial. As the saying goes, experience is the best teacher. And it's very true. I can tell you what it's like to work in a club and have a bottle of moet swung at you. I can teach ring strategy and tell you what it's like to be in the ring. But until you experience those for yourself, you will never really know what it's like. In the move "The perfect weapon", jeff's teacher told him "I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him." fighting is about experience. sure you can. no debate there. My issue is how many people do this effectively when kata is so rampant in schools. when I was in CMA, we had knife defenses, we had self defense drills. But all of it took a back seat to mastering the form. most people I know have had a similar experience. Now, my karate training was different from my japanese teacher because he didn't like the emphasis of kata. However, the american teacher was the same as my cma training was - kata, kata, kata. If you do drill repeatedly (and I mean repeatedly, not just 10 times, once per class) the great - that's what we need to see more of, IMO.

you're speaking from a point fighting perspective, which is a seperate problem of its own. kata will not prepare you for a knife attack. that will get you killed. Now, drilling the apps repeatedly can indeed help. But realistically, in a knife situation, you want to run if at all possible. I REALLY think a lot of the knife defenses people learn these days suck, but I won't touch on that, as it's off topic. Lastly, there is no single right way. keeping with your example, my front push kick followed by a flurry of strikes and ending with a lock and throw may work for me just as well as your x block, if not better.

No, in general, they don't. We did though, and I loved it. Our training consisted mainly of calesthenics, drills and sparring. kata took a backseat.

drilling up and down the floor? no. drilling with a partner? yes. The live feedback and added sponteneity will help overcome boredom. However, I don't disagree that kata can have its uses.

I would guess it's a hip flexibility issue. muay thai has sidekicks, but most schools don't teach them, because the tiip is more efficient.

you can't accurately count on that. When you are in a fight, the last thing on your ming is calculating pounds of pressure. When a person is rushing toward you, chances are his leg is not locked. In addition, you don't always have the luxury of the first attack. Where in tn are you? I am in tn also.

yes and no. not all pro fighters train 6-8 hours a day, contrary to popular belief. I've got a buddy who trains with couture, so I know that at least their guys usually don't. There are others as well. As for experience, it's always easy to judge what you perceive as "unexperienced and unpolished" when you are on the outside looking in. I will say Pride fighters are of a higher caliber, but to call ufc guys unexperienced is ridiculous. But, my guess is you won't see many kung fu guys in ufc anytime soon. People who want to compete these days are not interested in kung fu, and the guys who are already training in seem to have a disinterest in competing for the most part. San shou and shuai chiao stylists could easily perform well with proper training and some ground work. I think many other styles would have to adopt a san shou or shuai chiao style format to start having success.

An interesting thing of note: most of the older kung fu styles didn't have several forms as they do today - they only had a handful. Most of their time was spent perfecting those 1 - 5 or so forms and drilling applications. over time, people picked up forms from cross training in other styles and added them to the curriculum, tried to preserve dying styles, etc. eventually leading up to the great numbers of forms that styles have today. I wonder if karate was the same way. When I was training karate, I trained in two schools simultaneously. One was commercial. One was with a japanese friend of mine who had several students. My friend and his teacher both favored forms and drilling as opposed to fighting, although they knew the kata and were very good at them. consequently, He only taught two kata - taikyoku shodan and sanchin. The rest of our time was spent drilling and sparring. Since I was also training elsewhere, he would help me with those kata if I asked him, but he never taught them to any of us.

number one tip - don't do it. you won't be able to adequately learn from a video. My advice would be to find something that IS offered in your area, regardless of style and train there. books and videos are more beneficial when you have experience. With no experience, you will not learn properly.