EternalRage

At the end of the thread titled, "How long did it take for your black belt," some of the forum members digressed into a discussion of an acceptable time duration before qualifying for black belt - however the moderator instructed us to stick to the thread's original topic, and start a new one if we so desired. I have restarted this thread in hopes of attaining the same information that the discussion was gathering for all members of the forum, both beginner and advanced. In today's martial arts world, the black belt has evolved into a different symbol (IMO) than what it was before. I would like to discuss how long it should take to get to black belt and what it should represent (in terms of skills, performance, etc).

Is this Cheung Lineage Wing Chun? Because I used to train it under Master John Clayton (Maryland) and both he and GM Cheung both advocated competing in tournaments, and they are also of the opinion that if you are truly good, you can interrupt your movements enough to tailor your fighting to the environment at hand.

Sigh my posts got deleted. Oh well, it was getting kinda abstract with all the analogies. Took me 5.5 years to get to test for ChoDan in Soo Bahk Do.

Definitely not. BJJ is submission grappling. Chin Na is joint locking, tendon ripping, bone breaking stuff. While BJJ may incorporate similar techniques for submission, it is mainly groundwork.

In the school I attend, we spar different ways. Sometimes hands only, sometimes feet only. Sometimes we can only use techniques from forms, sometimes its point sparring. But these we do occasionally. The sparring we usually do (and also the type of sparring that all the other types are supposed to prepare us for) is the following: 1.) Obviously no groin shots (tho it happens so much you would think this isn't a rule) and shots to back must be light. 2.) Can punch anywhere, kick anywhere (with #1 in mind). 3.) Knees and elbows are game (with control), clinching is also game. 4.) Continuous. No stopping for red belts and above. 5.) No gear. Contact increases as get more advanced. 6.) Throws, sweeps, takedowns, and groundwork is allowed. That being said, its completely different than WTF TKD olympic point sparring, which is more competition oriented (its a game, popular sport). As it being more heavy on defense, definitely incorrect. At least in the school I attend, practitioners must be well rounded, in all ranges of fighting with all different techniques and targets. Multiple kicks are done with same leg, lead or back, jumping, spinning, whatever. The rules are so lax that you can do anything. I've done WTF, and I personally find the Olympic sparring to be a nice game, but its not as fun as the Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) school I currently attend. In fact, tonite in class we did mass attack sparring (2v1, 4v1, 5v2) with the ruleset above. Believe me, TKD sparring is less versatile and less practical than the sparring we do in my school. However, that doesn't diminish its value as a great international sport. That's the major difference. TKD is for sport, TSD (SBD) is not (generally of course - I've seen some crazy TKD schools that spar NHB).

As I posted, that's perfectly fine if you don't want to. The only thing I really disagreed with was your statement about it being watered down. By Traditional Wing Chun, do you mean Cheung lineage Wing Chun?

I agree. Belts are part of marketing technique. A symbol for advancement that has been highly abused. I absolutely love how they come up with all the philospohy behind each belt (ie red = blood/passion, green with red = christmas in july, blue with purple stripe = water with Barney the Dino)

Movies back then were different though. No CGI, no acrobatic movements, no speeding up of fight scenes (or slow mo or different frame speeds), no Yuen Woo Ping or other martial arts directors. Part of the reason it doesn't look good (at least to the laymen, and also somewhat to us practitioners - even if its not real it still looks cool) is because movies are different. I wholeheartedly agree about the commitment and discipline levels changing. As for the knowledge and skill level, I see many schools these days cutting their curriculums shorter and shorter. Some are just doing it to pump out black belts. Others do it because the art itself is changing. Take WTF Taekwondo - decades ago TKDists would have to learn one steps, self defenses, and other things that they do not have in WTF now because of the changes in training. There are other arts that definitely do still keep to their traditions and are still doing things the way they did them 50-100 yrs ago, but those are becoming fewer : (

wow do you have picture/video of that speed break (the one from US Open)? Thats nuts.

Fang shi, I meant that "too deadly to compete" is an excuse some people make to justify their not sparring out of fear, ego, etc etc (and it wasn't directed at anyone either, just a general comment about some of the attitudes of martial artists). If you don't feel like competing, then ok for you, you have your own goals. I would just like to say that being versatile and being able to fight in different environments and scenarios is not watering down your skills. In fact to have that sort of control over your technique is very very hard. Defending yourself in a self defense situation often involves someone who doesn't know what you're doing in an environment where there are no rules to observe, hence strategy isn't as much of an issue compared to a situation where you have to spar someone who has seen techniques similar to yours and there are rules that set the stage. As I have posted before, I believe true skill comes in versatility and being flexible in terms of how you use your skills. If you can fight UFC/NHB rules, kickboxing rules, no rules, and even something as extreme as Olympic TKD point sparring rules and still do well... that is true skill. That is (I hate to do this because its been SO overdone and he's probably rolling in his grave now) like being water.

The physiology information is true yes. But aren't we talking about the actual process of imprinting the patterns themselves? Despite the fact that its easier to lose the mental memory, isn't the process of forming those patterns take more time (generally) for muscle than for brain? Anyway, for those of you who are getting lost in all the analogies, I'm just trying to say its harder physically to develop the marital arts training when cramming it into a short time frame. Of course, naturally there will be those who are good at cramming (just like in school). But to set time limits just to be sure - 5 to 7 years is good IMHO. Even if they are fast learners who pick up stuff fast, those extra years are good opportunities to just get more experience training, or conditioning (as Sam pointed out), or tournaments, etc. This is a good point. I can see this from your perspective. Of course, it depends from what view you are taking your analogies (like Sam pointed out - analogies really aren't good proof to begin with). I could say that a major is analogous to techniques you are good at, or even a facet of training that you like (sparring, forms, etc). In my perspective, I wouldn't say that anything outside of your major is useless or not relevant to the education as a whole. Life/death I should clarify as "anything of major importance" - if you are training to be a professional in any field, you would be doing much more than just 600 hours - possibly depending on what field you are doing, 5000 hrs doesn't seem so outrageous. But as an analogy to martial arts training, again it is perspective. Some people would relate professional education to master/instructor level training in martial arts. At least in my opinion, I believe it is not - I think it would be more applicable to pre black belt training (which does sound a little extreme). Time to Black Belt will always be different when considering the appropriate skill level associated with that rank. It will always be different depending on the person/instructor/school/style. I think it has become an important issue because of the abuse of the commercial aspect of martial arts. Many schools out there are promoting students to black belt very fast in two to three years because its what people want. Customers want things and they want to have them fast. I'm sure everyone as a white belt used to look at black belts and think "when will I get that" or "I can't wait." Promoting people fast for purely commercial aspects (if they don't have the skills to back it up of course) degrades the style and its future practitioners. Yet a majority of traditional martial artists who are trying to make a living are doing this, and there are an abundance of martial arts practitioners who have black belts where the quality of their technique is atrocious. We can no longer look at black belts the same way as before - hence we can only ask "how much time till you got your black belt," because we can no longer assume a certain threshold of skills with that ranking. Then, because of the abuse of the commercialism, it has also gotten to the point that regardless of whether you trained 30 hrs a week for 2 years to get to your black belt, if you say "two years," people will automatically become skeptical. Sucks for the people that learned it fast and do have the skills to back it up, but hey thats how the world turns nowadays.

rofl... someone's going to get graded hard then...

I believe a Black Belt should take about 5-7 years. I took about 5.5 years to test for mine in Soo Bahk Do (havent' found out the results yet - probably take another month or two maybe). Since the US Soo Bahk Do Federation has a minimum of approximately 4.5 years for Cho Dan, most people on average take about 5-6 years. I think time limits ensure a certain threshold of physical proficiency - muscle memory rather than mental memory. We're all intelligent people (from what I can gather ), we could probably memorize a typical Korean form in about 20 minutes. It is the training of the muscle memory that takes a long time - it is said that it takes 30 days to develop a habit or 10,000 repetitions of a technique to get it into muscle memory. Given everything that is necessary for a black belt, to get every little aspect of hyung, kicking, basics, etc at that threshold takes some time. Someone mentioned that college only requires 600 hours of study or so to be deemed as proficient in the student's chosen field. However, I believe it is easier to learn things with the mind than the body (generally). And secondly - statistically - most people only remember/use 20% of what they learned in college. Martial arts training depends on strong foundations, and wouldn't you want to keep it till you die anyways? Why train only enough so that you will know 20% of it? I'd say its more apt so compare the training for black belt to training that is also life or death - say that of a medical doctor. Medical doctors spend 2 years in study, 2 years in clinical rotations, and another 2-8 years in some specialty training, often working between 60-80 hour weeks throughout all that time. Also, time frame for a Cho Dan Black Belt (in recent times) depends on the requirements of your school, your teachers, your organizations. WTF TKD requirements tend to be less and the threshold of proficiency lower - hence you see 2 year black belts. US Soo Bahk Do has the set time limit as an organization. I've heard of ITF TKD instructors who are like drill sargents and don't let you get your black belt till you have been beaten for a good five years.

First off, see if there are any regional tournaments that you can go to first. Main thing you have to realize is that the point sparring at the US Soo Bahk Do Federation tournaments is a game - it is not true fighting. I seen some guys go in there with free sparring type training and they get rocked because other competitors who have been doing it for a while are really good at the game. 1.) Make an attempt to block everything. If you don't sometimes they will just score the technique. 2.) Last US SBD Regional I went to (MidHudson Annual Regional in Region 2), the points were allocated as follows: 1 point for kick or punch anywhere, 2 points for block and counter, 2 points for jumping or spinning technique, 3 points for jumping + spinning or jumping with both legs above waist height. You have to be aware of this breakdown (it should be similar at the Nationals) and make sure to go for them when you see openings. 3.) Be economical, keep it simple. Don't use a sledge to hammer in a nail. Sometimes its better to just go for that reverse punch. 4.) Kiaping makes everything look better in judges eyes. 5.) Point sparring is pretty linear, back and forth motion/techniques. Sometimes a good side step can open up alot of targets. 6.) For training up to the tournament, do alot of drilling with a resisting partner. Hit focus mitts, pads, bags. And spar alot. I'll write more once I get some sleep... Also usually at regionals they put the white and orange belts together in one division. I have yet to go to a Nationals so I dunno how they do it. I'm going to try to make this one if I'm not swamped with work.

Even if it was training for the kill, the rules of these tournaments specifically forbid any crippling or killing techniqes. That being said, a lot of traditional practictioners like to hide behind the "we are too deadly for the ring" excuse. However, as my Soo Bahk Do master always stated, if you are truly good at some system of fighting arts, and if that system is truly good, you should always be able to adapt to any environment, any rulesets, because it is just a matter of controlling your techniques.

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It depends on your intentions. If you just want to train and fight, well Korean culture probably won't help you. If you're in it to train an art, like any other art, the history and culture is somewhat important.

You're going to have to come a little more specific than that... best out of what forms? Korean? Chinese? Because there are plenty of forms that have more moves that are more complicated (if those are the only criteria you are going by)...

well back to the original topic at hand, In Soo Bahk Do (HC Hwang's Federation), we still do the palputki horse stance punching, but as several of the postings by Tang Soo Do practictioners have already stated, the power comes from a hip drive. The effects of this hip drive cause the punching to be slightly different from other karate or TKD or even some Tang Soo Do schools, because with the hip driving, the shoulders do not stay square once the punch is fully extended. This is even evident in basic techniques. When doing punches in front stance, you can even see Soo Bahk Do practicioners are driving with their hips so much that their shoulders and upper body are not square, but actually on a slight twist (but upper body is still vertically straight). This is in stark contrast to many schools with Karate influence, who have square shoulders and hips when the punch is fully extended.

Its often hard to judge a person's true skill level - some may just be relying on pure mental memory than what should be trained into muscle memory. Others may just have natural talent, also it may be misleading since a person can be really good at one aspect of martial arts and very bad at another. It also makes it hard to standardize in an organization when so many different instructors have slightly differing training and experiences - this leads to different expectations and training methods. Time limits, although in recent times has become an ineffective way of measuring skill level, still offers a general guarantee for a certain threshold of skill level for a belt ranking. This is based on a giant assumption that everyone trains very hard and also equally. Thus I feel that in current times since martial arts has become more of a hobby than a way of life, it is hard to even gauge skill with time limits. I recently attended a Dan Shim Sa, and I admit wholeheartedly that I am by no means an expert in martial arts, but I definitely thought the time limits were too inaccurate at predicting and expecting a reasonable threshold level for dan for many of the candidates. Even though physical training is not all of martial arts, even some candidates were lacking serious Moo Do, which is another reason why time limits are good - to help develop character as well. I believe too many systems these days have too short of a time limit for first degree blackbelt. 7-10 years should be the minimum. Commercialism has played some part in shortening the time, however mostly I blame it to the fact that with contemporary life, it is hard to stick with something that long and even devote a reasonable amount of time each week to it. But then again if you love it, you will do it.

In my opinion, there is not much connecting the two besides history. TKD is evolving fast into one of the world's most popular sports. TSD is evolving a little slower. There are now numerous TSD associations and organizations, with a myriad of schools under each banner, all teaching their interpretations of Hwang Kee's original Tang Soo Do. The two arts have different goals and aims and ultimately are two different expressions of Korean culture.

Definitely a scam. I am assuming most of you are either in college or in high school. As students of basic sciences, recall your physics studies, and tell me, do you really believe you can defy gravity or phase through solid matter? I highly doubt the Shaolin Monks of old can do this - they are human just like you and me. They train really really hard, so they can do things normal people cannot do such as 720 jump spinning kicks, breaking bricks with their heads, etc. However, sometimes this can get translated into more magical and superhuman feats for the sake of profit or perhaps just to add mystique to an otherwise practical and down to earth martial arts system.

It sure did change the way people looked at traditional martial arts. The main resulting criticism was directed at traditional arts' archaic and often watered down training methods. Form practice as a basis for combat applications were realized as obselete (in general). Live contact training, in sparring and drills (just to be making contact with something - bag, pads, person) were suddenly an issue. Also conditioning is now necessary (being able to take a hit, last 3 full contact rounds, etc). One of the biggest things that traditional arts suffered was that many systems do not encompass the grappling and clinch range. UFC and other NHB arts brought this weakness into the spot light. Now some traditional arts have responded by inventing overnight gimmicks to try and pass off the art as being versatile to overcome environments like the UFC. Other arts choose to ignore it and embrace tradition. Some arts have chosen to update their training methods and integrate different arts in order to compensate for all ranges of combat.

Which organization are you with? You wrote Soo Bahk Do as your style, so I'm assuming you're a member of the US Soo Bahk Do Federation under Grandmaster HC Hwang. If so, if you are a registered member (which you have to be to test), you should have received a "Manual for Gups" which has all that information in there. This is a good summary of what they say in the manual: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4kbkf/student_resourses.htm You should be doing basics (jok gi, soo gi), form, one steps, self defense, breaking, sparring, and some sort of written/questionaire.

This is very interesting, as one of my sources says that the original 5 are the ones I listed in my previous postings. However, I have seen different combinations of kwans listed in other sources - some even go as to say that there were an original 9, including the Song Moo Kwan, the YMCA Kwon Bup, and some others that I can't remember off the top of my head. Again this goes with the concept that certain schools, instructors, organizations, etc etc like to report histories differently, whether for political or personal reasons (or maybe they just don't know). EDIT: Ok so I looked up what it says in Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Volume 1 and this is what it says: "1.) Moo Duk Kwan (headed by Hwang Kee, in Seoul) 2.) Yon Moo Kwan (headed by Chun Sang Sup, in Seoul) 3.) YMCA Kwon Pup (Headed by Pyong In Yun, in Seoul) 4.) Chung Do Kwan (headed by Won Kuk Lee, in Seoul) and 5.) Song Moo Kwan (headed by No Byong Jik, at Kai Sung)." There were other kwans after this, such as the Han Moo Kwan, Oh Do Kwan, Kuk Mo Kwan, and others...