EternalRage

I think it is popular - not as much a household term as TKD, but still popular.

Anyway, moving on to brawler's original question, I think the extreme emphasis on hip motion sets it apart from other styles (yes I know other systems do use hip motion, but Soo Bahk Do thrives off it like a smack addict and preaches it like a holy man on christmas). Its also one of the more challenging (conceptually hence technically) systems around which I like that too.

Kukkiwon emphasizes Olympic sparring - that is not fighting. WTF TKD is mainly about this - competition. Walk into any WTF TKD school, they're all prepping for tournaments with high intensity athletic workouts. Any WTF practitioners reading this? Unless things have drastically changed since I left the WTF 4 years ago, emphasis has always been on competition. Some schools might do some additional more traditional training, but if so its only a minor aspect. As for Kuk Sool Won and Tang Soo Do being not as well known, yes that is completely 100% true as I posted before, Korean Soo Bahk Do practitioners tell me their presence is very small compared to TKD. Soo Bahk Do is definitely not the national martial art of Korea, I am not sure what is right now. However, this does not affect whether TKD is a national martial art or national sport. Even the WTF states that it has evolved into "a global sport that has gained an international reputation." In 1968, two organizations were formed for Korean martial arts by the government. One was called "Dae Han Mudo Hwe" - for the martial arts of korea, and "Dae Han Taekwondo Hyup" - for the martial sports of Taekwondo. The reason why Kuk Sool Won is argued as the national martial art of Korea is that "Kuk Sool" is translated to "national art". Anyway, in 1971, President Park Chung Hee said "A national sport, Taekwondo." So I dunno Irons, I suppose this is all semantics, but regardless of the label, yes, TKD has amassed worldwide popularity and has given Koreans something to shout about, but also it is impossible to ignore the sweeping standardizations (at least from the Kukkiwon) that is quickly transforming TKD into a sport, especially with the Olympic Games. This does not mean that TKD is losing its philosophical traditions - I've seen philosophical football coaches and baseball coaches - but relative to other styles, TKD is turning towards sport. If your school isn't like that, then its not. But most are.

Can you cite your source? Because alot of people in Korea don't know what Soo Bahk Do is. Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan - usually only more older generations recognize these terms. Honestly, due to the government's efforts in the early 1950's, Tang Soo Do/SBD/MDK was squelched in most Korean communities. I am told this by Soo Bahk Do practictioners from Korea.

Actually the Korean government named Tae Kwon Do the national sport of Korea. Last I heard, Kuk Sool Won was named martial art of Korea (although the source where I read that from was kind of old). I think TKD didn't start out as a sport, and whether it was meant to become a sport is beyond me. I think if TKD masters wanted to, they could easily change the training to more traditional methods, but I have to disagree with you UpTheIrons, I think most TKD these days is more focused on competition (and that goes double for the WTF/Kukkiwon TKD, especially with the onset of olympic TKD). Which there's nothing wrong with that, I think TKD's a great sport. This of course is highly debated, Hwang Kee argued against this obviously, stating that his only formal instructor was Master Yang Kuk Jin during his stint in China. History is always subjective and often always is used to try and enhance one's position especially in the martial arts, so I dunno what to believe when it comes to Korean martial arts history - probably have better luck defining the 'real' wing chun or other hopeless history inconsistencies. As for WesQ's post about the Hwarang - it always gets messy when the topic of Hwarang comes up, because every art claims that there's some link to the ancient elite class as well as TaeKyon and those two stupid statues that recently I believe a highly researched contention was released stating that those statues have nothing to do with martial arts. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan was started in 1945. Period. It is not the ancient SuBak nor does it have anything to do with the Hwarang. It is a conglomeration of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean martial arts, therefore obviously it cannot resemble anything from the Three Kingdoms, which most of that stuff is lost forever anyway.

I think the WTF's Taekwondo book written by Yeon Hwan Park, or the book titled Taegeuk: The New Forms of TaeKwonDo by Pu Gill Won also describe the 8 triagrams and WTF Forms which should either be TaeGeuks or Pal Gwes. I've never heard of WTF practicing any other forms instead of those (def seen other schools practicing additional forms)

I assume you're referring to what I wrote for style. I do Soo Bahk Do. I also started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in February. Soo Bahk Do + BJJ = Brazilian Soo Bahk Jitsu. rofl.

In terms of # of movements yea TKD forms don't have that many moves (I'm just gonna go ahead and assume fujita san is talking about WTF forms), most have less than 40 moves, which say compared to a 100 move kung fu form with flips and butterfly kicks is less complicated and easier to do. Compared to the advent of "Xtreme MA" and more acrobatic forms, yea they're easier. I especially found the "walking" stance to be of great amusement. But that's just the physical stuff behind the TKD forms. There's supposedly a whole philosophical side of the forms based on the 8 triagrams of the IChing. To grasp that and any other more metaphysical parts of forms and training that in conjunction with the physical is hard. Very few TKDers actually take the time to do that. Fujita san's view of TKD forms may have been due to observing TKDers that don't take the time to put into their forms, since the growing trends in TKD (albeit this is a generalization, I know, its getting more true every day) show that sparring is the big thing... The encouragement of competition in TKD puts more emphasis on plastic trophies rather than spiritual development, which is a generalization too, but for the most part its more or less true. So TKDers, research on your forms, put the time into them, and make it an art as much as possible, because honestly, from a physical viewpoint, with the other forms out there today, WTF TKD forms are not very impressive. So work to make up for that.

Wait a sec. Brawler, you dug up a two year old thread....

Hey Eanels and Niel, I practice SBD, here's a basic rundown: Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan is a Korean system that was blended together by Hwang Kee in the 1940s (officially opened 1945). He blended together Tae Kyun, Chinese Kung Fu, and elements of Okinawan Karate, as well as his own personal studies of the Muye Dobo DongJi. SBD is one of the surviving original kwan styles that emerged from liberated Korea in 1945. Most of the others have been lost (or are very very hard to find) due to the TKD standardization by South Korea. As someone has posted before, in SBD, there are hard linear techniques as well as circular flowing techniques. But just like most other Korean martial arts, the emphasis (but definitely not the whole system) is rooted in strong kicking techniques. The main difference between Soo Bahk Do and other Korean kicking arts such as Tae Kwon Do or Kuk Sool Won is the heavy (and I mean HEAVY) emphasis on hip utilization. Training in Soo Bahk Do is done as in most other traditional martial arts sytems. Basic techniques (most of which resemble karate movements), intensive kicking, forms, one steps, self-defense, breaking, and sparring. Depending on school to school and instructor to instructor in the US Soo Bahk Do Federation, you can learn a whole different host of other skills (cross training is usually encouraged and many masters were trained in many other skills/systems), such as groundfighting or weapons, etc. People do SBD for different reasons. There are regional tournaments held for SBD, and many SBD practitioners go to compete in open karate and kungfu tournaments as well. Other practitioners just do it to stay in shape or learn self defense. SBD is not purpose oriented like other systems (albeit this is a generalization) like competition TKD or health TaiChi. My personal take on SBD: its hard. A lot of people like to go to TKD instead or WC (clubs on my university campus), because the hip utilization is a very hard concept to grasp in SBD, and the training (at least in the school I attend) is pretty rigorous and testings are few and far in between. People get frustrated because the concepts are rather difficult, and honestly if you're looking for a quick training trip to the competition scene you probably should find something else. It's hard to do SBD correctly and well. That being said, its still a lot of fun, challenging. Any questions, please feel free to ask/PM me.

Maybe your TKD is an offshoot of the Moo Duk Kwan, since half of it defected to the Taekwondo movement in the late 1950s. MDK TKD and MDK TSD/SBD all do Pyung Ahns.

Keep in mind its a romanization. Taegeuk is the accepted norm, but one could easily spell it like TayGook (or something that could be slightly less offensive from a Korean's potential point of view).

poor guy... least u didn't smash his fingers

Definitely strange... If you learned it in 30 min its prob certain that you won't remember it after the test. Then again I've seen students who've done things for months before a test then after the test they forget all their stuff. Either way, 30 min is not enough...

What's that white belt form called? (out of curiosity)

I thought there were 15 kwans, 5 major ones before 1950. I suppose maybe there were 9 by 1955 when "TaeKwonDo" was proposed by the council of kwan leaders/Choi Hong Hi (whichever history you buy into)?? I thought there were only 8 TaeGeuks. Even when they were still doing the PalGwe forms there were only 8 of those. Both sets of forms are in 8 to represent the 8 triagrams of the Iching. I was told by my WTF instructor (when I was still with the WTF) that all degrees above 4th were honorary (meaning you don't have to test). They sent my WTF master a 5th degree certificate from the Kukkiwon in the mail... Edit: I guess its not honorary then.

I'm a bit biased towards a longer time span before BB, but as it has been pointed out that long training periods doesn't necessarily make good practitioners. It depends on what your school's requirements for BB are, how many times you go into class a week, how much time spent training is quality time, etc etc. If you're training a full system with everything from basic kicking to forms, one steps, self defense, all different modes of sparring, etc etc then yeah I'd be worried if I were you. The definition of a BB has changed in recent years - some have killed alot of requirements to get people promoted faster, others have added a ridiculous amount in to say that they don't promote people really fast, some have even promoted students only based on competition results. Levels of proficiency that are represented by a black belt vary so much these days. So you are a little skeptical of how long you've been training regardless of all the work you've put in so far. I'd say that's respectable and that not many BB these days think about that. I am going to assume that as a practitioner of your art, you want it to be strong and represented well. If that is the case, even though you have trained hard and met these requirements in 1.5 years, think about how much better you will be after another 2.5 years. If you believe that you know your forms inside out backwards and forwards, think of how well you will know them 2.5 years into the future. Then think about how much better you can represent your art with the added training time. People will tell you to go at your own pace, and that some advance more quickly than others. That is true assuming that you just want to get the BB. But if you want to really make sure you earn it, and that you can represent your art well - if you feel you need more time, then take it. MMAChamp's signature says it all - "A black belt only covers two inches of your rear... the rest is up to you" (or something like that, its a Gracie quote I think).

US SBD Federation one steps 1-4: 1.) Opponent steps back with right foot, down blocks with left hand. You stand at ready stance. Opponent steps forward and punches (with right fist in right front stance). You go at a 45 degree angle to the right, with a right front stance and left hand knife and block to the opponent wrist (other hand in a fist by your right hip). Switching to a left front stance (merely driving with your hip and pivoting on your feet), middle punch to sternum. Switch stance in similar fashion while punching to the "inchoong". Left foot steps behind right foot (modified back stance facing opponent) and right leg (front leg) roundhouse + kihap. Recover backwards. 2.) Same thing, except you do everything with the opposite side. The opponent will still be punching in the same fashion as #1, so the difference is that this time, you are blocking and attacking on the outside of his arm rather than the inside. 3.) Opponent attacks in same fashion as #1. Outside inside block with your right hand in a left front stance facing the attacking arm (hard to explain exactly how to get into this stance with text - as your instructor for clarification). Switch stance (driving hips and pivoting feet again) to a right front stance with a middle reverse punch (left hand). Switch again and reverse punch (right hand) to the "inchoong." Left foot moves behind right foot (modified back stance again) and side kick +kihap. Recover backwards. 4.) Same thing as #3 except all done with opposite side. Opponent still punches in same fashion as all previous one steps so the difference between #3 and #4 are the same as #1 and #2 - #1 and #3 go to the INSIDE. #2 and #4 go to the OUTSIDE. Main thing to pick up from these drills is sidestepping and how to manage your hips in different punching/kick scenarios.

As for the mounting, ground and pound, wouldn't it be easier to kick the guy in the leg, clinch and then knee+elbow? (I see u do Muay Thai) Ground's worst place to be in a fight ... cud take a boot to the mouth from one of your attacker's buds (this is NOT to say that groundfighting should be ignored, or to be shrugged off with an excuse like "well I just won't let them take me to the ground")

This is interesting. I live in Baltimore - I actually go to a university here. The security department on this campus like to post up details of crimes that happen to students as well as university related people in the area. Unfortunately, Baltimore, having one of the highest crime rates in America, provides us with many MANY security posts. Two students have died in the last year. Why? Because people on the street carry guns. All the security reports show the attacker having a gun or at least a knife, and if its a knife, there are usually 2 or 3 attackers. I have yet to see a report in my 5 years here about someone getting attacked on the street by one empty handed person. It depends on your definition of "learning how to defend yourself and fight." If you are talking about some drunk hitting you in a bar or a club and you have to beat the crap out of him that's one thing. Defending against a guy with a gun (which is like all of Baltimore) is something else. So weapons training - only certain weapons training (ie getting a membership at a gun range) can help you on the street for real self defense. I'm guessing that all the classical weaponry like sai's katanas, etc are for fun and to help build the art that one practices.

Shotokan has grappling?? Not very known for it...

I agree, it depends on the judges/hosts.

even if you get in, sometimes the politics behind style will get you in last place. To clarify, what I mean is that if you go in there with a karate uniform and patches on, start flying and jumping in the air better than the TKDers, theyre gonna fail you just out of sheer politics because they can't show a karate guy placing above tkders. I've seen TKDers have to dress up in kung fu attire to attend their tournaments because if they go into the forms/sparring with their doboks on, the judges magically don't see as well... Those are examples. Every style does it.

Well if you are trying to counterbalance the extension from say, a roundhouse kick and then you try to do a front kick without dropping your foot, your body may still be trying to counterbalance for a roundhouse instead of the front kick. All these different kicks utilize hip in different ways and you cannot mix and match different counterbalancing. That's why its important to be good at the individual kicks before you try machine gun kicks so your body knows which way to counterbalance naturally so you don't teeter around.

That's true but UFC also made TMA's realize that many of TMA systems often don't train for all ranges of fighting, and also that most of the oldl training methods like forms, one steps often aren't as effective for full contact anymore unlike bag training, focus mitts, etc.