Shaolin

She and anyone else who does something like that is deranged. The real question is: What do you do with the deranged? Kill em? Fix em? Lock em up forever? One day society will likely find a way to fix these people until then the public will probably seek revenge. Jim

This is exactly the problem I have found with the WC people I have trained with. They only seem to have a very basic understanding of the fundemental principles that the system is based on. Like I've said before - I have every respect for the system but have not seen it performed as I believe it can be - apart from by JKD people. No question that there are lots of people who cannot 'do' or use the system. But I don't know why you met so many lousy Wing Chun people. Have you met anyone from my lineage? Still, I know plenty of guys that I trained with that couldn't defend themselves against an angry 8th grader. In Moy Yat's school there were basically three kinds of students: First the students who were just there because they wanted to be part of the clan and be cool or get the name. Not too much to work with there. Two, there were some really nice people who just didn't have any killer instinct or physical ability - they would never really develop. There was one very nice guy who seemed to be a fairly typical guy about 30 years old or so. But he simply could not learn anything we tried to teach him - not even a Tan Sao could he do. But even with lots of effort he finally told us - thank you very much for trying so hard but he just couldn't do it. Third were the people who really wanted to do the system. They asked questions and tried applying their Wing Chun in different situations. Some of these guys at the meetings you would hear, before things started, from the other side of the room saying, "Okay, you ready? Here it comes.." using full power barehanded attacks to work on intercepts or whatever. Many of the serious people, like me, came from sparring heavy karate and could more easily apply the concepts taught in the school. For me it was like 'the dream' because I had been given almost nothing to work with in my old karate school but there were loads of goodies to be had in Wing Chun. At the karate school we learned tools but not really how to use them, except fake low hit high, etc. In sparring we were told not to use the blocks we practiced all night because they didn't work. I found my lead hand shooting up in a rising block motion in sparring and getting nailed. Students were forced to figure it out themselves and the results sucked. At least I felt that, considering the amount of training I was doing, that I sucked, and couldn't improve very much or very fast. So I read up on JKD, also had a couple of nice talks on the phone with Chris Kent, who is a really nice guy, modified myself and tried to improve my moves, kicks, which helped a little, getting me more roundhouse (JKD hook kick) scores and better overall but it wasn't enough. After about a month or so at Moy Yat's school I took what I learned and did it on my sparring partners. I was shocked to find that they could rarely stop my new Wing Chun attacks and were so easily overwhelmed. I took the theories that I had learned and applied them in sparring fearlessly - shooting in using the Centerline and blitzing them with straight punches and using leg jams and so on - even at that stage I could blow away even my good partners who used to kick my butt about 90% of the time. I finally had something to use besides a punch or kick - I had a concept and one that worked. The serious people in the school were really good and some of them are absolute terrors - like Pete Pajil, who worked in a max security prison, Miguel Hernandez who was familiar to street fights, William Moy who took out three guys in the subway who ‘asked for his jacket,’ and Mickey Chan - who introduced equipment into Moy Yat's very traditional school, was sort of the 'door man' and mentor to us all - he was also known for whooping a$$ while keeping a big smile plastered on his face. There are others and many were just amazingly deadly. Most of these people can really use the whole system and many have in the street. Many of the serious people would also train quite often. I trained 5 days a week averaging 4-5 hours each time. We would normally go from 6:00pm weekdays to 10:00pm and 11:00am - 10:00pm Saturdays. It was great fun. Anyway I am surprised you never came across any of the really good people, I hope you do someday - they are out there. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-14 05:35 ]

Big no no? I've seen tons of threads here that compare styles. In any case comparing styles is nothing more that sharing opinions and sharing information, which is good for all arts. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-13 21:34 ]

I've always been partial to a defense I've seen from, I think, Paul Vunak years ago. He uses a longest weapon to nearest target intercept and stop hit in the form of a nice low JKD side kick to take the guy down at the knee. YODA what say you? Although I've trained to defend against an attack with my Wing Chun I feel better staying away from the blade if I can. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-13 01:09 ]

Okay - I won't be going to his knife class. Not a helpful comment IMO. Jim

Okay well this is a red herring. I am sure you know that the stated objective of the Wing Chun is the perfection of simplicity in combat. This can be taken into several different levels of discussion but I assume you would agree that simpler is better than complicated in combat – no? Whatever your position on this is I can tell you our position is that total simplicity in combat is perfection in combat and is the stated objective of Wing Chun. The most direct path in form, approach, training, theory, and movement that provides for a totalistic solution to ending a confrontation.. I already acknowledged this in my last post: This is why I am looking to add some grappling. Please tell me why you think Aikido would not be applicable to using gentler techniques against an assailant. I am interested in Aikido for fun but of course I was hoping to pick up some throwing, joint locks and generally varied energy training. I would have thought that many of the moves they use would translate into come-along moves and restraining techniques. Most of the moves I have seen look like they could flow right out of Wing Chun. Any info you can share regarding this would be helpful. I’m guessing that art would use all methods and be bound by none. Hmmm I thought I heard of a system like that once. As you stated in your site regarding Bruce: I would rather study with all the great masters instead of studying with a student of all the great masters. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-11 09:27 ]

There are certain basic elements that as I understand it must be present in a system to be a complete art. Some of these things are energy issuing, balance control and a practical combat theory. Without these things one does not really have a complete combat system. Wing Chun uses these things to apply the system of Wing Chun. Energy issuing and balance control are critical to controlling the enemy and preventing him from controlling you. Even a good grappler cannot take you down if you control his balance and so Wing Chun focuses on balance control as does a grappler but we do it standing up through the issuing of energy. I have said in other posts that despite what many other BJJ people say. I do not like the idea of rolling around on the ground hugging some crazed attacker in the subway, whose teeth are inches away from my ear and neck etc – just not my thing. I prefer systems that are standup oriented. If BJJ is stand up oriented then I stand corrected but that’s not what I have seen. The ground IMO is best left for sport not the subway. My understanding is that traditional Wing Chun does not use chin-na, or grappling as we know it today because grappling takes too long to apply in combat. Wing Chun is intended to be a fast stand-up close quarters hand to hand system designed to take out the enemy as fast as possible. The strikes in the system are thought to be the fastest way to achieve this. The close distance and connection that you have with the opponent makes a unique combination for striking. Strikes can be delivered with tremendous penetration and power because of the close distance and fact that you are often pulling the opponent into the hits, which are focused on snapping the opponent's head back in combination with neck shots. My Sifu used to say, "We don't have time to choke him or lock him, we just take him out and move on to the next one..." Some families, I think Leung Ting's group have incorporated some grappling moves into their training. Which is fine, but not really Wing Chun as I know it. I have no problem with cross-training and in fact I am very excited about starting Aikido as soon as I can to expand my abilities. I think that the two arts complement each other very well using similar theories except in reverse - one is almost the inverse of the other so the balance between them should be interesting. Likewise if a Wing Chun guy wants to do a little BJJ that's fine too. I happen to loath the emphasis on ground-work but I would not mind doing a very short stint in a BJJ class for practical reasons. Wing Chun is very good at messing someone up but not so good at being gentle or giving you the option to use restraining moves on people who you may not want to hurt too badly. I have been in situations where I didn't feel right messing the guy up. In that case I would have been happy to get him in a wrist lock while we waited for the police to come instead of using my mouth to talk him to death. This is one of the reasons that I want to do some Aikido - plus I think it'll be lots of fun too Well to me Wing Chun is not designed for a particular person or body type although it could be argued that it favors some body types over others I suppose. But to me this misses the point. The point is that this system was designed for a particular purpose: To defeat the enemy as fast as possible in a no-nonsense survival situation. That’s just what Wing Chun does from beginning to end and I think it does it the best. Jim

By way of example - imagine what would happen if Wing Chun was passed down to students with all the forms intact, a couple of drills and punches here and there but missing the basic theories and idioms of Wing Chun and Chi-Sao. All information about the Centerline etc all theories erased. The students would be left in the same predicament that many students find themselves in today - wondering how to fight and how to use their system as it was intended. The students of this New Wing Chun school could practice their forms all day long and I guarantee you they wouldn't have the slightest idea, not only what the movements are, but wouldn't even be able to identify what is a movement. Wing Chun moves are way to small and subtle to be identified through guesswork. Wing Chun forms teach concepts as well as movement and energy. Without a real master who actually knows how to teach and how the system works the students would not be learning Wing Chun. Instead they would probably go on to use Western Boxing and Karate moves and make up their own Wing Chun and use that to fight, all the while they would continue to do their forms, and call their art Wing Chun, but clueless to the fact that the forms they worked contradicted everything else they trained. In the end it's almost funny - training forms that totally contradict the adopted fighting philosophy. People would start to say things like, “Who needs forms?” “What do they have to do with combat?” “Those old monks didn’t know @#$#” “All I need is a heavy bag…” Sound familiar? It's happening at a Dojo near you! In Wing Chun the forms are important because they teach and reinforce the concepts that make the system work. If the Wing Chun student did not practice forms then his Chi-Sao would take longer to develop. He would not learn how to use his horse. As a result he would have no footwork, he would have trouble positioning his hands and in general his kung-fu would be as the master's say 'less successful' meaning not so hot. When Bruce studied Wing Chun he practiced the forms diligently and so added to his success in that system. Forms are useless when one has no idea what they are supposed to be learning. To me when one trains 'Karate' drills and forms which are designed to teach one how to fight using Karate, and then goes and 'spars' using a jumping around boxing style of fighting, virtually devoid of any Karate, now IMO that makes the forms useless or real close. The forms in Wing Chun are critical for proper transmission of the system and development of students. Wing Chun forms are not really designed to simulate combat, nor are students taught to imagine opponents attacking them. Instead, the forms are designed to reinforce the key concepts of the system such as Centerline theory, hand replacement, hand unity, facing etc. Each form contains a library of movements from the system and each form represents a different idea in the system. It is said the second form's concepts counter the first's, the third form counters the second and that the first form counters the third. Our forms also train the student how to move certain parts of the body, how the hips should be positioned, how to move their horse using proper foot-work, as well as, how to unite the hands and the feet and also how to disconnect the hands and the feet and that both are used and correct. The forms are responsible for building the student's base - all other training rests on this base. Without it students would never stop making mistakes and never have the slightest idea how to train the more complex exercises since later exercises are all based on these basics found in the forms. Forms are how great arts train basics and pass along information. Those who do not value forms do not value the systems that created them. These neophytes are the ones thinking that with their few puny years of training they have amassed the combat vision and combined understanding of all the ancient fighting monks and masters. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-10 01:33 ]

I thought all systems were based on some kind of structure and range. This makes some assumptions about the art in question that I may not agree with. I also have some doubt about what you mean by improved. Remember less is often more - Bruce said, as I recall something like - refining one's art should be a daily reduction not daily addition - no? Love to talk about this stuff over lunch with you but we're way too far apart. Okay well I suppose this is true but I find it really hard to believe that anyone is going to take a full power and full penetration Dim Jung under the chin followed by a Lan Sao to the neck and multiple follow-ups at close range. No magic pill? Okay I did know that - I am not a neophyte. I read the article. I have done multiple searches just now and much reading over the years: I have never heard of any fight between Gene and Bruce, nor have I been able to find any mention of a fight. Do you really mean a fight? They did train together and work together and share information but I am not aware of any fight. If you really mean fight I would like some corroboration if at all possible. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 22:03 ]

Wing Chun was designed to be flexible from its begining. Unlike computer technology and the silicone chip, the human body hasn't changed much in the last 5000 years. Given that fact we can say that there aren't too many Wing Chun moves left to be 'discovered' since Wing Chun's founders have been studying it since the begining of human martial time. If that is true (and we believe it is) then very few major changes will be seen in a system that seeks out the perfection of simplicity. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 06:57 ]

Please open my eyes. What is it that all us classical Wing Chun stylists are missing? Feel free to be specific. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 04:58 ]

When Bruce came over from Hong Kong he was a fresh-faced 18 year old kid. How could it be that this kid was able to turn so many so called karate masters into students overnight? Are we really to believe that this was simply a result of his natural ability and charisma? Absurd. Bruce was able to do things to these ‘experts’ that they could not believe nor understand. Clearly his Wing Chun gave him the ability to do this. In an article I read many years after Bruce had died Joe Lewis related in an interview how he never did understand how Bruce used to use these ‘forward blocks’ - this was Bruce's core - everything else came from it. The success of Wing Chun is well known and many Wing Chun students, it could be said, are very confident in their skills. This is largely because of the success in the many challenge matches in Hong Kong many years ago and in self defense situations today. Not too many years ago some people from my family traveled to asia and fought against other styles including Muy Thai and they did quite well according to Dai SiHing Mickey Chan, although one was disqualified for kicking a Muy Thai guy in the groin too many times. In the old days many members of Yip Man’s school would fight in challenge matches with great success. The Late Great Grand Master Yip Man had told his students that, "If any student of mine who can truly perform the system up to the 2nd form ever loses a fight to another style I'll throw myself off the top of the school’s roof ..." Many other Sifus in Wing Chun, including my own (Moy Yat) would not hesitate to tell students to fight, rather ‘kick his ball…’ if challenged or threatened. So there are a lot of people out there who know how effective this system can be. Now this doesn’t mean that some students cannot apply the system in combat – some can’t and this will always be true for all systems – some students just don’t have what it takes. In Bruce's case he never had the chance to finish his Wing Chun training because he was forced out of the school. He continued his training with Wong Shung Leung but when Bruce arrived in the States he had learned only about half the Wing Chun system. Bruce had told many of his close friends at that time that he knew he couldn't beat his Wing Chun seniors such as Wong Shung Leung using his Wing Chun - they were just too far ahead of him....So he needed another way...he needed liberation from the ‘nucleus’, from the limitation he faced: Wing Chun was now the wall and in order to grow past this limitation, he needed another way: Meet Jeet Kune Do, which is mainly based on Wing Chun concepts. Back in those days he also told his Kung Fu brothers that he had created a new ‘art’ and it's 'mother' was Wing Chun. Bruce with half of the Wing Chun system was the first person to bring remnants of a real Chinese fighting system to the states and it had quite an impact. From that point forward Wing Chun had a major impact on many other arts, either directly or indirectly, JKD, Ed Parker’s Kempo, were just the beginning, many other styles straining to understand their own fragmented systems were soon after using Wing Chun type terminology – quite a contribution for an art that seems to be getting bashed around quite a bit just now. Wing Chun is still poorly understood even by those who’s systems were hatched from it like JKD. In order for Wing Chun to work several key or core concepts must be adhered to, without them the probability for success in combat is greatly diminished. Some of these basics are: Centerline Theory, energy issuing, facing, conservation of motion, arm and leg sticking, following, hand unity, hand replacement and many other basic Wing Chun concepts. Many so called systems that borrow from Wing Chun try to use some of its methods but always leave key things out and fill them in with other things – this is not Wing Chun and all bets are off when you start changing the basics. If this is your only experience with Wing Chun you are missing something - from Wing Chun that is. Wing Chun is designed for hand to hand combat – the kind of fighting Seals do – and not surprisingly the Seals and other SF people use concepts from Wing Chun or similar to Wing Chun, because it represents the fastest way to take an enemy out and specializes in addressing Reaction Delay in combat. This means that when in combat we always experience a delay before we can react. Everything that makes Wing Chun unique is a direct result of dealing with this reaction delay and is unique to the Wing Chun system. Wing Chun can always react in less time than the opponent, given the same situation because Wing Chun is always simpler - be it in movement, theory, training methods, the way you think in a fight, is all radically different that other systems and this is so in order to address reaction delay. Just a few examples: Centerline Theory, Filling the Centerline, Conservation of motion, Advanced Weapon Structure, Sticking Hands training, and a fighting mind that thinks in a simplified application of fighting concepts that clears his mind and allows it to adapt. While it may be easier to learn Western Boxing, which is a sport, this does not mean it is more efficient simply because it takes less time to learn. I could make up an art of the Hammer-Fist that takes 30 seconds to learn, this however, does not make it more efficient. Wing Chun uses all of its parts to achieve one common goal and that is to maximize its attributes. For example: Wing Chun has amazing kicking ability but this is virtually unknown to outsiders, its sticking legs and kicks allow Wing Chun to dominate this range in order to get into its preferred range with a positional advantage. At its preferred range Wing Chun can avoid any reaction delay completely and feel how to defeat the enemy without the need to even see him. Other styles have an amusing tendency to run away when confronted in this range – at least in my experience. This was confirmed for me by Bruce in written accounts of his fights where he said he would end up chasing opponents down the street throwing punches at the back of their heads. Wing Chun is half external and half internal. These days it is always the internal aspects of systems that confuse people. Most Westerners cannot open there minds enough to accept the Eastern notion of softness defeating hardness. To many Western minds this is all sissy stuff that means nothing in combat. For people of this mindset it is better that they stay within the confines of pure externalism or hardness for this is all they are capable of understanding - hard systems for hard heads I always say. I personally have found the system to be incomparable - anytime I have used it, either in the street or in sparring. The system allows the user to apply concepts not just traps, punches and kicks. Using these concepts I have found it possible to deal with just about any situation so far. Just after I had left my Karate school I was still sparring with guys from a local Karate schools. As with most people I found there were always some people that I could dominate and some that could dominate me. Imagine my amazement when after only a few weeks of Wing Chun I found that not only could I handle my tougher sparring partners, but that they could no longer handle me. That’s was all the convincing I needed. Many years later I find the system to be fantastic and applicable even in situations I used to think it couldn’t handle such as against grapplers. Yes the core concepts are applicable even against those who would prefer to roll around in the muck. Many of my kung-fu brothers such as William Moy who weighs only about 135 pounds has used his Wing Chun against as many as three attackers at once in the subway. Other students have had similar success. While other styles debate whether it is even possible to do these things we keep doing them over and over again. Wing Chun, means Forever Springtime and so it’s no wonder that there are always new things to be found in the system and new ways to use the system in today’s world - Wing Chun is always fresh, new, simple, direct, alive and adaptable – that’s Wing Chun. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 06:24 ]

What was impractical? Most consider it quite practical. If what you studied was not then I would look at the source, there are pleanty of lousy schools out there, which doesn't mean they all are. Wing Chun is the simplest system in terms of what it does - steal balance and keep pounding the enemy until they drop - sounds practical to me. If you mean that it is missing things like throws or joint locks this is because the creators of the system believed that snapping the enemy's head back at close range and chopping the neck etc takes less time than flipping them repeatedly - I agree. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 05:30 ]

If his Wing Chun knowledge was incomplete how could he understand it's limitations? It would make more sense to say he understood the limitations of his knowledge. It is true... If you are in control of the line you are in control - when you lose control you have lost the line..assuming that either person is actually trying to use the Centerline or knows how. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 05:39 ]

Not true. Wing Chun has Sticking Legs (Chi Gerk), which is essentially Chi-Sao for the feet... Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 04:57 ]

Wing Chun has been transmitted very clearly over the more recent years, say the last hundred for sure. One of the reasons this is so is because of the emphasis in the system for the importance of teaching, and teaching correctly. In Yip's school and my late Sifu's school all SiHings (seniors) are responsible for teaching all SiDis (juniors), this means that the senior student quickly learns the art of teaching and the junior student has a broad range of teaching examples; this prevents the student from focusing on one person's stylizations. There was a story my Sifu told about one Wing Chun master who had some problem with his right arm. Consequently he could never do a correct Bong Sao with one of his hands. Out of respect and admiration for their master all of his students did the Bong Sao the same way (wrong). This is a good example of how stylization can distort an art. The way Yip Man and my Sifu’s schools worked they tried not to encourage any stylization and allow the student to properly and purely evolve. It is also important to teach the forms as accurately as possible and this was also highly emphasized. Wing Chun as a system is also designed with backup systems in place to avoid distortion in its transmission and development. This is done with the Kuen Kuit (see link below) and helps ensure that Wing Chun theory dictates how the system works and how the theories are applied. These idioms have been handed down since the begining and are used to check our training and make sure it is correct. As far as innovation goes one can create or invent any 'new' technique at any time in Wing Chun, so long as it adheres to these core concepts of the system...it is said then that he has discovered a new Wing Chun technique since by definition any movement or technique that conforms to the system's core concepts is a by our definition a Wing Chun technique. But since the human body hasn't changed much in the last few hundred years there may not be much left to find. Unlike Wing Chun very few systems make such an effort to ensure proper transmission of the art, this is one of the reasons why Wing Chun is still quite good, despite the incompetence found in many a school. http://www.wingchun.org/text/misc/kuenkuit.html Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-08 23:15 ]

Wing Chun, in different ways at different levels, always attempts to 'fit in' with the opponent. In this month's Black Belt magazine Tony Blauer talks about every martial artist having a favorite technique. I thought about this for a minute and realized that I do not have a favorite technique - and I think this is probably true for most Wing Chun people, and is true for the kung-fu brothers I've asked. Each tool in Wing Chun is designed to fit in with what the opponent is doing. I do not 'favor' a Dim Jung (palm) over a Cheung Choi (fist): The difference between the two strikes comes down to the position of the elbow during the striking movement, and determines which line or gate it controls. Of course, which line we need to control depends on what the opponent is doing or is about to do or could do. Likewise, whether we use a left or right hand is not dependant on if we are left handed or right handed, it is determined by the opponent’s actions or potential actions. Chi-Sao, for example, is an exercise in adapting to the energy of the opponent. This energy can tell you what the intention of the opponent is and dictates which technique must be used in order to maintain or gain control of the line. In another helpful example Tony Blauer talks about styles responding to his question. 'What would you do if' scenarios. He says that styles respond to these questions by saying, "If he did that I'd kick him..." or "If he did that I'd grab his wrist..." In Wing Chun we never plan attack specific moves, we only say, "I will attack his Centerline" or "I will protect my Centerline" and we use the system to do this. This is the difference between using techniques and using concepts. Aikido uses concepts too and Aiki means 'to harmonize' in combat the ideal is to harmonize with the opponent and compliment what he does. In this way he can be rendered helpless and his energy used against him. For example: If the opponent comes in with a low punch crossing the Centerline a possible response would be to control the center by using a Jut Sao on the same line/side as his punch. At the same time the other hand will strike. Together these movements are called Jut-Da and this means that 'Jut', which is a slight jerking motion with the hand and forearm, is used with a strike from the other hand.. The Jut Sao in keeping with harmonizing 'pulls' his punching energy inside closer to us, while deflecting downward, but adding to his energy and speeding up his attack (also off-balancing him) while simultaneously hitting him. The result is that his attacking energy is added to your striking energy, in essence you pull him into your striking hand. This is what we mean by using the opponent’s energy against him and is only possible when this harmony is achieved. Jim

That's not knife fighting, that's the Bot Jarn Dao, or Eight Slash Swords, which are for use in general armed combat and not easily concealed or legally carried around, as far as I know. Knife fighting generally means using a small hand held knife, even pocket type knife that can be easily concealed and carried on one's person. As yoda pointed out the Filipino and Filipino influenced schools specialize in these skills. Jim

Hama Ryu-Jutsu? Do these guys really teach JKD, Jun Fan boxing(Bruce), Escrima(Dan), some basic Wing Chun etc? JKD isn't really a style, at least according to Bruce. Just wondering are they certified and by whom? Jim

I began Wing Chun because I wanted to experience what Bruce did while training with Yip Man and the original clan in Hong Kong. Having had the privilege to study with Moy Yat and his clan I must say that I think it came very close and I am very, very glad I had the chance to do it. Like Bruce said, Wing Chun is a great system. I happen to think it is the best system - as do many of my kung-fu brothers. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-08 01:23 ]

If he's any good it doesn't come through in the videos. His technique looks sloppy and flimsy. I’ve seen much better in my late master’s school.

http://www.wingchun.com/history.html http://www.wingchunkuen.com

If you ever do decide to leave then tell them the truth without being cruel and they may ultimately benefit from the honest info. Wondering what made you reconsider and go back. Are you studying Wing Chun now and what family is it? As you may know from the other thread I am also interested in doing both Aikido and Wing Chun. I have about 5 years of Wing Chun and I think Aikido would be a great addition to it. I think Wing Chun could nicely handle the interception part of an encounter and the Aikido could be used as a less bloody follow-up if needed. I think I would prefer a real Daito Ryu school but I don't think there is any around. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-07 03:32 ]

There are so many things that you can discuss that make Wing Chun, or WT, or VT etc. totally different. I think it's useful to begin with the key developmental element of Wing Chun, which is the basis for the rest of the system. The key problem that the classic Shaolin monk explains that Wing Chun addresses is the reaction delay that we all have in combat. This means that when we see the opponent attack there is always a delay before we can react. Everything that makes Wing Chun unique is a direct result of dealing with this reaction delay. Wing Chun can always react in less time than the opponent, given the same situation because Wing Chun is always simpler - be it in movement, theory, training methods, the way you think in a fight, is all radically different that other systems and this is so in order to address reaction delay. Just a few examples: Centerline Theory, Filling the Centerline, Conservation of motion, Sticking Hands training, and a fighting mind that thinks in a simplified application of fighting concepts that clears his mind and allows it to adapt. Think of all the things that Wing Chun does to address this delay and the stark differences will show themselves plainly. Jim

Yes. What is meant by 'more joints between bones, the more places there are to generate power' is that there are more muscle groups involved than just the triceps and at each joint is a muscle that can contribute to the increase in energy being focused into the fist. The power from a punch starts from the feet, moves up to the legs, then the hips, the shoulder, the arm, and the wrist and is finally released through the fist. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-07 03:16 ]