Skeptic 2004

...yeah...that was funny wasn't it Shorin? Not really. Just thinking about it screws with my nervous system to this day. Having been on the receiving end of a double strike I assure you that they are effective, do not require you to "overcommit", and do not leave you vulnerable as imagined. If anything, they are at times more effective than a single strike. When my instructor double striked me (the funny thing is that he didn't even hit me hard)...he knocked me the **** out. The simultaneous trauma to opposite sides of my body overwhelmed my nervous system and I blacked out. I woke up on the floor a minute later wondering what had just happened. If your opponent is unconscious, I don't think you're vulnerable.

A quick definition of "martial" in Webster's is, "experienced in or inclined to war." War is the application of violence; therefore, the martial arts are such that they are experienced in and inclined to the application of violence. If what you're doing isn't doing that, then it's not a martial art. It's something else. One must never lose sight of the fighting aspect; it is paramount. That being said, I've discovered as they years go by that the more I focus on the fighting aspects of Shorin-Ryu the less violent I have become. I'm more hesitant now to engage in a physical confrontation than I ever was before I started taking karate. Why? It's the fear and respect for the power and responsibility that comes with my training. Enjoying the communion of brotherhood with your fellow dojo-kun, getting great exercise, and focusing on the mental and spiritual aspects are all good things and have their places; but these alone do not teach you to truly fear and respect what it is you are doing. Let me provide a very cheesy illustration. I've had the fortune to undergo some combat arms training and recently (uh...8 months ago) qualified on the Beretta M9. There are other aspects to the gun that each could merit it's own study or focus: the mechanical engineering of the gun itself, the thermodynamics involved in projecting the bullet, the aerodynamics involved in the bullet's flight to its intended target. I could have talked about guns with the person I sat next to (an avid hunter) and had a great time. I could have debated with my instructor about gun control laws or the appropriate use of violence and nonviolence. But, If I hadn't come to the shooting range prepared to learn a skill that would save my life at the expense of my enemy's, I probably wouldn't have qualified on the gun. if I hadn't focused on the fact that the M9 is a lethal weapon that could seriously injure or kill someone, I wouldn't have had enough sense to not point it at other people or myself whether incidentally or as a joke on the firing range when it was loaded. It just would have been another cleverly engineered gadget - not a weapon. By emphasizing the fighting aspects of one's training one will seriously (and not just superficially) realize the horrific power and brutal responsibility that comes with such training. Only then could someone truly "refrain from violent intention" (notice how the people who clamor for war and violence tend to be those who have never experienced it themselves?). To address the matter of retention, I stay because I want to get better. Shorin Ryuu said, "Fighting is a skill." I agree, and it is a skill that I want to get better at more than anything. It is my pursuit of this skill over the last 5 years, my focus on the fighting aspects of my training, that I have been able to enjoy the benefits of brotherhood, exercise, the development of my mental acumen, and the occasional spiritual awakening. Focusing on the fighting aspects of the martial arts does not make these other elements mutually exclusive. By learning how to fight, I am learning how to live.

While I acknowledge it's not THAT important (Nick_UKWC's point is valid), I'm surprised at how it's easily dismissed in here. In my opinion and experience, while lineage isn't something that's absolutely vital, it's not something you just wave off either. David - the spelling I use of Hawai'i I think is the official spelling. The apostrophe separating "Hawai" and "i" emphasizes the "ee" sound in the final syllable. As a side note, in Hawai'ian, when "w" is preceded by a vowel, it's pronounced "v"...so you actually say "Havai'i" instead of just "Hawaii." It's a pretty interesting language, actually: I think one of the more fun things I've tried to say is the state fish - humuhumunukunukuapua'a

This is not in particularly a criticism but just something that I find very interesting. This question has been posed in the Karate section, and several people (myself included) proudly rattled off their lineages. Yet, no one in here has done so. Do you not know them? Personally, I think it's something one should always investigate so you can determine whether or not what you're learning has stood the test of time or is just something somebody made up recently....or to determine if who you're learning from is genuine or is full of crap (this is easy if you're familiar enough with a certain style and its history...newbies on the other hand are easily suckered).

The mind has a funny way of playing tricks on the body, just as the body has funny ways of playing tricks on the mind. I've been playing with some chi-gung exercises, white crane, and bagua for a while to realize this. I try to imagine that if chi did exist where I want it to go. Blood flows to those areas of the body accordingly, providing a tingling sensation and sometimes heat and confirming what it is I just imagined. While difficult at first, it's gotten easier with practice. I'm not going to delude myself with the mysticism behind it or bother with the science of it if there is any. Chi-gung practice as well as white crane and bagua has increased my concentration and sharpened my ability to read my body. I view it as purely a mental construct and a means to an end. I vote for option number 3.

Ah....the good old DOA2 days.... Back when me and my best friend in college didn't have cars (and our school was about 6 miles away from town...and there was no mass transit system that ran from our school to town), we'd pop in this game on a Friday or Saturday night and play for hours. My buddy and I are super competitive about EVERYTHING so when we played this game, best out of 3 or best out of 5 matches wasn't enough....try most victories out of 100 matches. We didn't play those matches where you had to win three rounds either....we played the matches where you had to win five rounds. 90% of our matches ended 5-4 rounds. Most of the nights we finished about 60 matches to 40 matches, the ultimate winner alternating between him and me...which is why we came back the next weekend to play....I wasn't going to lose to HIM, and he wasn't going to lose to me. Playing the game was interesting because we both fought in the video game the same way we fought in real life...strategy wise, that is. Then one day, we both got cars and social lives. Life was much better after that, and we stopped playing. The DOA2 days, however, were pretty classic.

Black as the darkness that covers the pit of my soul ...Sorry, just watched a South Park ep. on goths and feeling a little sardonic. Shodan - Shorin-Ryu Shorinkan (July 2004) Edit: If you read Shorin Ryuu's blog, check out his article on Evil Lite .

I personally think lineage is very important because it ties you into the larger whole of the MA legacy, and you become a part of an ancient history and heritage. I don't think it would be rude or weird to get a hold of your old instructors, especially if you were close to them personally at some point. Unless there was some sort of falling out between you, I'm sure they would at least appreciate knowing how you are doing. Your instructors SHOULD know their own lineage to at least their teacher's teacher...er...your "great-grand" teacher. If they did some sort of traditional style, it should be relatively easy to figure out your lineage. I know nothing historically about non-traditional styles besides AKS (a non-traditional style I did back in high school) so I can't speak to them. As far as my lineage goes, I have a direct link to "To-te" ("Toudi" in the old Hogen) Sakugawa. Allow me to illustrate. (*whips out chart*) My main instructor is Mark Staal, whose teacher was Terry Gravelin, whose teacher was Doug Perry, whose teacher was Shuguro Nakazato, whose teacher was Chosin Chibana, whose teacher was Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu, whose teacher was Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura, whose teacher was Teryua "To-te" Sakugawa, whose teacher was Peichin Takahara. This is roughly a 250 year lineage. I could shorten the list considerably if I considered Pat Nakata (my current instructor) as my main teacher whose main teacher was Chosin Chibana, etc. In either case, should I decide to teach someday (I've been debating whether or not I'm going to...leaning toward NOT at the moment) my students will have the benefit of knowing that they are the progeny of a nearly 300 year legacy. Other traditional styles realize similar benefits. I wish I knew my family lineage this well...but my ancestors were slaves so that's shot all to heck.

Well, AngelaG, a healthy dose of skepticism is good. It's always important to measure and verify someone's credentials (I'm not saying bash the guy...but it's important to question things like who did he train under, how many years has he been training, etc.). A person with solid credentials doesn't mind have them looked at or being probed and asked; a person with shaky credentials has something to hide. People with shaky credentials need to be held accountable. Optimisitcally giving martial arts instructors the benefit of the doubt is the reason why we have things like McDojo and websites like https://www.bullshido.com where I get to laugh at the silly things people do . I've learned over the years in the MA to never take anything at face value. Edit: the website I'm trying to refer to is bull shido dot com...but for some reason it keeps getting censored...

If you have the time and inclination, I would also suggest reading Eiji Yoshikawa's epic Taiko. At a tidy 926 pages it should make for quick reading . While Taiko actually mainly deals with the rise of Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Nobunaga's right hand man, and later, the leader of the Western Armies after Nobunaga's assassination at Hennoji Temple), a huge chunk of the book deals with Oda Nobunaga and actually gives an interesting characterization of Nobnuaga that differs from the typical Japanese lore (at least all the stuff I've seen) that portrays him as an outright evil man (largely due to his cruelty in real life and largely dealing with burning the temple on Mt. Hiei...that REALLY ticked off a few people back then). Yoshikawa portrays him as a zealot idealist and calculating politician/general whose public conduct and cruelty were largely measured and deliberate to elicit the responses he wanted (it also sort of paints him as being largely Machiavellian)...think Elizabeth I...only he wasn't a woman, didn't flirt with suitors, and was married among loads of other differences. FYI: "Taiko" was Hideyoshi's childhood name if I remember correctly. Edit: Yoshikawa's Taiko, by the way, is historical fiction. What happens in the book for the most part actually happened, but Yoshikawa took some literary liberty with some of it. Think of it as "based on a true story" and you'll be good to go. And, maybe Elizabeth I isn't the best comparison...hmm....

Wow...and now I think I've seen everything...

Flank, you already know that this is kinda of a soft topic for me after reading my original post before I changed it...you'll have to make up your own mind on how to handle the problem. As a parting shot, I've seen 1kickKO's signature before, but I never really paid it any attention until just a second ago. It's actually very appropriate for this discussion: "If instead of fighting with him you say to your enemy, 'You have won' and bow before him, that is the biggest deed in the world."

Yeah...I write really slow and didn't realize others were writing so freaking fast....and I didn't read the part about you being in university, I thought you were a kid in elementary....so my original post has been edited to reflect that.

I've not a whole lot more to add. There's no such thing as "self defense in two easy steps." I would also add that playing around with pressure points is actually very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The last thing you want to do is hospitalize this dude (he's a jerk...but come on, he's not that much of a jerk...is he?). You'd have to commit yourself to a fighting system to learn these things and how to use them properly. Have you ever considered being nice to the guy? I'm sure you've heard of killing people with kindness. He'll eventually get sick of you being nice to him and leave you alone, or he'll actually realize what an immature idiot he's been and will leave you alone...God forbid he apologize. Don't mistake kindness for weakness; it takes more strength to extend a hand to help than it does to pull it back and punch. I'm not saying be spineless; stand up for yourself and don't let him take advantage of you (that doesn't necessarily mean a physical confrontation by the way...). But the nicer you are to him, the more it reflects on his poor conduct. While people may have been too immature to notice in high school, people will see it in college.

I was 16 when I got started.

I'm not a master, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway. I sucked. Physcially, coordination-wise, weakness, everything. I was the proverbial 95 pound weakling, and I got picked on and bullied in elementary and junior high school. Luckily, I managed to talk my way out of every physical confrontation I was thrust into, outsmarted my tormentors, or played mind games with my would be attackers (there was a fight I almost got into, where I grabbed the guy's throat and pushed him back screaming, "Bring it, B****!". I was a pretty shy and geeky kid at the time [i NEVER cursed], so it really messed him up and he decided to leave me alone). I got into karate in high school via my best friend from high school whose dad taught AKS at a local gym. I had been wanting to get into the martial arts since junior high (the confrontation I described above had me wondering how much longer I could mentally stay one step ahead), and now that I had the chance, it was something I wanted so badly that I put 110% into it. I practiced all the time. Literally, ALL THE TIME. At home I was doing drills in the backyard. At school I played around with some techniques on my buddies. When I worked part time, when there weren't customers in the store I practiced kata in a corner where no one would see me (my boss saw this one day and decided to exploit me as "theft deterrence", telling every would-be shoplifter that I knew karate). When karate class was cancelled, I showed up at the gym anyway and practiced on my own. I ate, slept, and breathed karate. Co-ordination I never knew I had suddenly came. Weakness left. My flexibility doubled in a matter of weeks - I was doing the splits after a month! I was surprisingly quick and more powerful than I ever thought possible. I was constantly surprised at what I was capable of. One day, my instructor pit me against my best friend (a brown belt at the time while I was still a yellow belt), in a tournament style matchup. I lost, of course, but I had the satisfaction of knowing that he wasn't holding back when he fought me and that I gave him a run for his money. The instructor said that it was the best fight he'd seen in years and wanted to know if I wanted to compete. It was all the result of work. I was never "gifted", but I wanted it badly. And then, I met Shorin Ryuu and our traditional karate club in college. Rather than merely doing drills and practicing kata, basically going through the motions, I was forced to think critically about what I was doing at all times. Most of what I learned came from developing these thinking skills and applying them to kata. A huge chunk of my learning also came from my training partner. I learned a whole lot from Shorin Ryuu wanting to try some thing he'd read or seen or had just thought about. I also learned a lot from a lot of the half-baked ideas I got from reading, observation, or something I'd just thought about. Without Shorin Ryuu as my training partner to bounce ideas about kata, principles from kata, or techniques, I wouldn't be anywhere near as half as "good" as I am today. And, we had something of a little friendly rivalry going on...(we have LOTS of interesting stories about some of the crazy things we did because I wasn't going to lose to HIM). Don't know why that last sentence is in past tense.... I am also fortunate to have had a plethora of really AWESOME instructors who were so willing and open to share their knowledge with me freely. So, in summary: desire, LOTS of practice, critical thinking skills, an awesome training partner, and awesome instructors.

Edit: bleh. I had something to say, submitted it, changed my mind and decided not to say it. I don't know how to delete posts (or if that's possbile)...

Thank you, yamesu, for obliquely validating one of my original points (before the bounce vs. non-bounce tangent): you don't have to move fast to be fast. If you subscribe to the "way of the intercepting fist", interdicting your opponent is being fast without moving fast: minimizing unnecessary movement and hiding your intent - I think Bruce gives an analogy about how the cobra's bite is felt before it is seen...you don't when the cobra is going to bite you because it hides its intent, and when it does, it moves only enough to facilitate the act of biting. If I sound like a broken record, I apologize. I've said it every time I've posted in this particular discussion, so I say it again: minimize unnecessary movement. This is being fast without moving fast.

The original Matrix was just that - original. (though actually, that has recently come into question thanks to a recent court case...Sophia Stewart ring any bells with anyone?) The Matrix Reloaded benefits from a second viewing. The Matrix Revolutions revolutionized my lunch back out of my mouth... Edit: I know who Sophia Stewart is and the controversy surround her...just checking to see if anyone else does.

I think it depends on what you're training for. There's a difference between trying to win a game and trying to keep the poisoned punk thief from killing you as you're getting mugged. Sparring is fun because it's a game - the adrenaline rush, the movement, the way your body reacts exactly the way you train it, the success of victory, the lessons from defeat. But, at the end of the day, that's all sparring is: a game. There are rules, there are winners, and in tournaments, there are prizes. However, if I want to train to fight, I do kata because fighting is exactly what it was designed for. Traditional kata - and I stress traditional - is the culmination of an evolutionary process; I won't bother repeating the rest of the rhetoric because just about everyone has heard it before, I'm sure. I don't want to make it sound like one is better than the other (though I think my bias is pretty evident) because, as I indicated, it depends on what you're training to do. There's nothing wrong with training to win a game. There's nothing wrong with training to fight for your life. Just don't confuse one for the other.

Je suis Americain et j'adore a etudier des langues etrangeres. Mais, je ne me rapelle pas beaucoup a parler la francais. Je l'ai etudie la francais dans ecole, mais il y avait plus que 6 ans depuis je l'etait present la classe francais.

Feels good to know that I wasn't completely wrong like I initially thought I was...

Thanks, Mr. Mike for the info. Shorin-Ryuu is half correct in that I was more interested in the sword/spear/shield portion of it, but I am also interested in the information you just mentioned. If you know of any credible books I could get my hands on to read about the history of pankration (preferably dealing with the ancient version, such as its origins, if there were any known "masters" in ancient Greece, how it was disseminated, etc.) please let me know. If you have any knowledge of the sword/spear/shield portion that would definately be a bonus. Thanks.

I'm learning the bagua version...unfortunately I still don't have the footwork correct. Not that this does you any good anyway, but I figured you'd want to know.

I don't know if this has already been asked (and I really don't want to dig through the several thousand back posts to check). I was watching something about the making of the movie Troy when one of the producers mentioned something that perked my interest: the unarmed combat style Brad Pitt (or his stunt double) uses in the movie-fu portrayal of Achilles was derived from drawings of various combat postures on Greek urns. Someone argued in another of the forums that either the Greeks or the Romans were the first to create kata or forms. I wanted to know if anyone was familiar with the Greek martial arts or could point me in the right direction if I wanted to read more about it (I need something a little more credible than Wikipedia).